Earlier quoted context omitted.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-san-... Edit: As pointed out below, this isn't a comparable institution. However, I think we can empirically test the question "Will students offer bad yelp reviews to schools that are their primary credential?" The answer seems to be yes: http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-francis... http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-angeles…
That's a bad example. When trying to get a job an interviewer could possibly see a bad review that a student left of your school and assume that means the student may not have the skills necessary for the job. Also, presumably at your school as students and instructors are interacting personal relationships are being developed (ie. networking) which could be beneficial in finding a job. If the student then gives a ba…
Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
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Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#22When you're starting to code the first few 100 hours tend to be the most difficult ones (since so much is new). This is where the support you get from a bootcamp is really helpful.
Also, "becoming an engineer" aside, I think that learning to code has many side benefits. One of them being that it helps clarify the way you think. In a recent blog post, Hilary Mason (from Bit.ly) articulated this very well:
"That you can apparently complete a three month Ruby bootcamp and get a job today is an artifact of a bizarre employment market, and likely unsustainable. But by dedicating three months to learning to think in a logical framework, you’ll also gain an ability that will open opportunities for you for the rest of your life." http://www.hilarymason.com/blog/learn-to-code-learn-to-think...
Full disclaiment: I'm the Marketing Engineer at http://www.thinkful.com (an online school that teaches beginners to code through mentorship and projects) and I was a Thinkful student before joining the team fulltime. Also, I was part of the last batch at https://www.hackerschool.com/ - an excelent program that could be compared to a bootcamp given it's duration and how intensive it is.
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
These Yelp reviews mean very little to be honest. What kind of an idiot would write a bad review when 1. Writing bad review of the code training you got basically admits to others that your skills as a programmer is poor. 2. You risk souring interpersonal relationship you might have built going to the program. When you say the code training you got at X is bad, you are actually telling potential employers that people…
http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-san-... Edit: As pointed out below, this isn't a comparable institution. However, I think we can empirically test the question "Will students offer bad yelp reviews to schools that are their primary credential?" The answer seems to be yes: http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-francis... http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-angeles…
Kaplan and devbootcamps might share some similarities, but they are qualitatively different when it comes to their value propositions for students and how that value is derived.
Kaplan is meant to boost scores on an objective test and that is where the value is. They either succeed or they fail for each student. There is no consideration of Kaplan by the institutions proctoring these tests or the institutions accepting these scores as a metric. The boost to test scores is not tied to the social reputation of Kaplan and so they are free to speak out against Kaplan if they are dissatisfied and that dissatisfaction, rather than some sort of conception of social good-doing in warning others, may even be the incentive that spurs them to do so.
Devbootcamps are meant for students to be a quick way to gain entry into a field suffering for want of code monkeys. The value here is in the job placement, not in the education or boosting of knowledge. The ability for students to be placed in jobs is actually largely a function of the social standing and reputation of the devbootcamp and not in the merits of the individual's education attained there. So all parties involved: founders, instructors, and students as well as the "in" at the companies that hire these newly-minted code monkeys have the same incentive at keeping up the reputation of the school.
The "in" at the hiring companies may quietly pivot away from using devbootcamps as a source for employment if dissatisfied with the code monkeys attained, but will never speak publicly about their missteps in sourcing code monkeys from them. They have no incentive to and every incentive (personal reputation in career, nothing to gain by burning bridges with the school and students, etc.)
Students, even if they feel they didn't learn much or were not truly prepared for employment, won't voice this because the ongoing value of the sunk cost of their time and money relies upon a favorable impression of the devbootcamp and its students.
The founders and the instructors reasons for not speaking out against what they are doing is clear and I won't elaborate on it.
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#24Yes, there are wide claims from these bootcamps about $80k+ jobs waiting for people _if only they take this course_! Naturally, that's great for business, and turns out to be quite true judging from talking to alumni and people graduating from my own cohort. The problem with that, which Shereef (the founder of Dev Bootcamp) tries to get across to the students, is that there is a risk for students to become spectators, to feel like they can just get through the 9 weeks and be entitled to a well-paying job.
A lot of the process is getting you to combat that attitude and turn you into a world-class learner. That's also helped by a selective interview process, and they seem to be doing a good job at getting the most enthusiastic students aboard. What the teachers strive for at DBC is to create an ideal learning environment. It's hands-on and project-based rather than lecture-based, and, to reiterate the point, what one learns there more than anything is how to learn. We also have a whole lot of fun.
It's not for everyone, of course, but for people in certain situations it can be great. My goal was not necessarily to become a web developer, but to break into the software engineering field without a relevant degree or portfolio is a tall order, and I was able to make several projects at DBC that filled up the latter. Not masterpieces by any means, but not "shitty websites" as the author of the article purports. My team's final project used a lot more technologies than just Rails and Javascript (we used Solr, Redis, and several APIs for various tasks).
Two months now after I've graduated, I'm not only working, but using Java, Python, AWS, Linux, and more technologies day-to-day. We didn't use any of those at DBC but I've been able to pick them up quite quickly in part because of learning strategies we developed there. I am probably an outlier in that regard though, as it seems most people getting hired out of DBC are getting jobs doing Rails or front-end work. But not everyone will land a programming job, and some don't wish to.
The best piece of advice I can give to someone looking in to a bootcamp is this: Don't do it if you just want a job and are excited by the salary prospects and opportunites. Do it because you can't help yourself from being a programmer, solving problems relentlessly is something you love, and you want a way to collaboratively kickstart your learning in a great environment.
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#25> The bootcamp model gives you an "intensive" course good enough so that you're able to build a shitty web app, and then they hopefully place you in a job needing a code monkey.
Everyone writes shitty code when they first start. Building shitty web apps is better than building no web apps, which is what most beginners do. Bootcamps force you to build stuff early, and building is the best way to learn. Your 5th web app won't be so shitty.
> Personally I'm against charging to teach others how to code. If people come to the profession with drive and passion, I believe it should be free. I wasn't charged when I first asked how to code.
This is an idealistic fantasy. Sure, learning to code for free is better than learning to code for $12k. But human labor is scarce and people don't work for free.
> I also think good programming is a journey, not something that can be consumed and digested in a compacted 12-week course.
Agree. I see bootcamps as the third step on a journey to becoming an entry-level developer. The 1st phase is with online resources like CodeAcademy and CodeSchool, the 2nd with mentor-led part-time courses like Thinkful, and the 3rd with bootcamps or apprenticeships. The 4th phase is all the learning you should be doing on the job ;-)
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#26I recently met a graduate from dev bootcamp in Chicago. I had an opportunity to talk about various coding subjects. Was he a junior? Yes. However, he had a grasp of good design patterns, best practices and most importantly he had a desire to learn - I mean this guy was a sponge. I realize that I have a sample set of one, but based upon my interactions with him, I would say that this isn't a scam. It appears to give a…
Maybe the program they went to was a poor one, or they didn't have programming talent, but there's no way we could've hired those folks to do any work for us.
Obviously my sample size is really small as well.
It's encouraging to read comments on this thread mentioning positive experiences though. I think when well run by competent mentors/teachers, these things are very useful for all concerned.
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#27I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, one of the schools that this article is about. > I also think good programming is a journey, not something that can be consumed and digested in a compacted 12-week course. I am in emphatic agreement -- we tell our students that the point of our school is to get to a spot where you can get paid to learn the rest, and we hold classes for alums to encourage ongoing education. > Personall…
Your argument on Quora seems to be "if I make up largely-irrelevant categories, and then make up numbers, our program looks good". I'm not sure how that's supposed to be convincing. "self-instruction period" - this seems significantly less important than total time-sink, which I'd guess doesn't run in your favor at all. "the percentage that end up writing code for a living" - I honestly don't think I've ever seen a s…
1. How many students land jobs in the tech industry or go onto other things (personal projects, adding skillsets to their employ, etc). What's the breakdown of success?
2. How much they were offered? How much in a year?
3. Follows up to the length and stability of their employment. Did you keep working for longer then 3 months, 6 months?
4. Did you have pre-experience in tech?
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I'd like to see these things, because while the programs generally provide some eye opening experience. They miss the mark at getting people a job. Business are reluctant to hire these unexperienced students (not to confuse experience with training here, I mean work experience).
They fail in providing a big picture to potential students, it all feels partly snake oil without some necessary objectivity.
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#28I totally understand where you are coming from. I really respect the open and helpful culture of the developer community and want to give back without expecting any money. I had tried to learn on my own for awhile but was never able to dedicate the time needed to get to the next level. The course gave me that opportunity and set me up to be able to continue to learn. That said I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, just like I wouldn't recommend college for everyone.
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#29In these countries, an incredible demand for developers arose very fast because of the "new" possibility of offshore outsourcing.
You had radio mechanics, electricians, admin workers flocking to IT. It paid well and there was a huge shortage of talent.
Read an HTML book and take a course, and you're a junior developer. 12 months later, granted you hadn't messed up too much, presto! You are now a senior developer.
The party didn't last however, and now, Pakistan and India are high risk countries to outsource to, main reason being this dilution of the talent pool (while you of course can find incredibly talented developers in these countries, it is exceedingly hard).
That probably won't happen to the same degree in the US, but the jobs of hiring managers and young entrepreneurs (who are often inexperienced with qualifying candidates) are certainly not getting easier.
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#30Personally I'm against charging to teach others how to code. You want someone to teach you to code, with which you could earn $100k/yr for 30+ more years, and you want them to volunteer their time to do that for you? I bet you do. How many hours per week and for how long will it take someone to teach you "how to code"? Let's call it 100 hours just b/c we need to have some sort of cap. We'll use me as the example - I…