Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
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Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#2I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, one of the schools that this article is about.
> I also think good programming is a journey, not something that can be consumed and digested in a compacted 12-week course.
I am in emphatic agreement -- we tell our students that the point of our school is to get to a spot where you can get paid to learn the rest, and we hold classes for alums to encourage ongoing education.
> Personally I'm against charging to teach others how to code.
Sounds like a fine personal philosophy. Our students faced a decision of self-instruction vs Hack Reactor, and they choose to pay the instructors at my school (who took pay cuts when we hired them away from Twitter, Adobe, Google, etc but are nonetheless pretty pricey). I summarized my perception of why in this quora post: http://www.quora.com/Programming-Bootcamps/Self-study-vs-Boo...
> I'd like to hear back from bootcamp graduates on their experiences both in the program and in the real world.
http://www.quora.com/Reviews-of-Hack-Reactor http://www.yelp.com/biz/hack-reactor-san-francisco
> ...good enough so that you're able to build a shitty web app, and then they hopefully place you in a job needing a code monkey...
I'm not a fan of the tone of this article, but it's also aggravating that the content is incorrect. Student projects include 3d space shooters (http://satellite-game.com/), bittorrent clients (https://github.com/rtjoseph11/nTorrent), music visualizers (http://arcanegl.jit.su/), a reddit-focused machine learning / dataviz mashup (http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/17/reddit-insight-interview-ha...), distributed computing platforms (http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/06/43651/), etc.
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#3I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, one of the schools that this article is about. > I also think good programming is a journey, not something that can be consumed and digested in a compacted 12-week course. I am in emphatic agreement -- we tell our students that the point of our school is to get to a spot where you can get paid to learn the rest, and we hold classes for alums to encourage ongoing education. > Personall…
These Yelp reviews mean very little to be honest. What kind of an idiot would write a bad review when
1. Writing bad review of the code training you got basically admits to others that your skills as a programmer is poor.
2. You risk souring interpersonal relationship you might have built going to the program. When you say the code training you got at X is bad, you are actually telling potential employers that people who got training from X are also bad. Who writes in their grad school application that they got trained in Kaplan?
--- edited point 2
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#4I think if a dev bootcamp is confident, they won't charge their students unless they land a job. (Added: a few people have noted that App Academy is a bootcamp that uses this model.)
I personally prefer the https://www.hackerschool.com/ model. It is not a "bootcamp". There is no structure, aside from what the students come up with themselves. It's a good place for both newbies and seasoned vets alike. It is free. They make their money by helping students get jobs at partner companies. If a student gets a job at a partner company, the company pays the fee, not the student.
Disclaimer: I attended Hacker School and got a job through them. It was a worthwhile sabbatical and "reboot" for my career (after being burnt out by my previous software job of six years).
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#5In short, probably not.
The students learns valuable lessons in exchange for money. Probably quicker than they would on their own.
It's just speculation on my part, but I'll imagine having someone point you in the right direction on almost every turn will speed the learning up a lot, and provide good value for the student.
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#6I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, one of the schools that this article is about. > I also think good programming is a journey, not something that can be consumed and digested in a compacted 12-week course. I am in emphatic agreement -- we tell our students that the point of our school is to get to a spot where you can get paid to learn the rest, and we hold classes for alums to encourage ongoing education. > Personall…
These Yelp reviews mean very little to be honest. What kind of an idiot would write a bad review when 1. Writing bad review of the code training you got basically admits to others that your skills as a programmer is poor. 2. You risk souring interpersonal relationship you might have built going to the program. When you say the code training you got at X is bad, you are actually telling potential employers that people…
http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-san-...
Edit: As pointed out below, this isn't a comparable institution. However, I think we can empirically test the question "Will students offer bad yelp reviews to schools that are their primary credential?" The answer seems to be yes:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-francis... http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-angeles http://www.yelp.com/biz/southern-california-health-institute...
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#7I recently met a graduate from dev bootcamp in Chicago. I had an opportunity to talk about various coding subjects. Was he a junior? Yes. However, he had a grasp of good design patterns, best practices and most importantly he had a desire to learn - I mean this guy was a sponge.
I realize that I have a sample set of one, but based upon my interactions with him, I would say that this isn't a scam. It appears to give aspiring developers a very solid foundation to base a career on and dismisses them with realistic expectations.
I also don't see the fault in someone offering a course and charging for it. If people have the money and are willing to spend it on this, then I think there is value in what they offer. I have someone that I mentor, but I feel like these programs would definitely speed up the learning process. I wish he could afford a program like these, he would surely benefit from the breadth of knowledge offered.
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#8Earlier quoted context omitted.
These Yelp reviews mean very little to be honest. What kind of an idiot would write a bad review when 1. Writing bad review of the code training you got basically admits to others that your skills as a programmer is poor. 2. You risk souring interpersonal relationship you might have built going to the program. When you say the code training you got at X is bad, you are actually telling potential employers that people…
http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-san-... Edit: As pointed out below, this isn't a comparable institution. However, I think we can empirically test the question "Will students offer bad yelp reviews to schools that are their primary credential?" The answer seems to be yes: http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-francis... http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-angeles…
I don't think Kaplan is relevant from a credentials or networking standpoint. (My understanding is that it should help you get into a school based on how your score improves on a test rather than offering direct social signaling.)
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#9Another hacker's perspective: no, they are not a scam.
Right now, demand is high enough in the bay area, that I believe these schools are a great value for someone who wants to start a career in iOS or web development. The tuition for Hacker Bootcamp is ~$12k, and they claim that 88% get job offers after graduating, with an average salary of $79k.
I recently met 2 people who graduated from hacker bootcamp. The first guy had a great attitude, seemed very curious, motivated, and interested in learning. He had multiple offers in the $80-90k range. He kept talking about what a great time he had interviewing with one company, which I'm pretty sure is the company he would eventually pick.
The other guy had a worse attitude, no offers yet and seemed like he almost felt entitled to a senior level job because he finished hacker bootcamp. Considering that I've been doing this stuff for 10 years now, it was hard to see someone with such high expectations for 6 months of effort not being met.
They won't guarantee you a job, but they are not a scam. This may be a little extreme, but I was reminded of this Vonnegut quote: “Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.”
Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective
#10> In the end, while some graduates may have potential, I'd be willing to bet the majority are unemployable if it weren't for such a talent drought.
A couple of honest questions about this statement:
1. Is there really a talent drought, or is there an overabundance of companies looking for employees they don't need? I see a lot of companies seeking "rockstar" engineers with CS degrees and an insane level of expertise across the entire stack, but many of them are operating relatively straightforward CRUD applications at limited to modest scale.
2. If companies are hiring less-than-capable developers because of this perceived "talent drought", which the OP seems to be suggesting, what exactly are these developers doing all day? "Fake it until you make it" has very real limits. I don't care how intense a bootcamp is. If a company truly needs developers with a certain level of expertise, a rookie developer's lack of real-world experience is quickly going to become apparent. So if bootcamp graduates are being tolerated, it would suggest that, at least in some cases, companies can live with less experience and competence than they say they need.