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Re: Beer

#71

Post by nmcfarl »

bradleyland wrote: post #25
tptacek wrote: post #9

Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment? That's what I think it is. Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of beer in our Chicago office (we haul crates from Russian River and Three Floyds and Jolly Pumpkin). But nobody drinks while they work, and nobody drinks whole bottles; we open a bottle and a bunch of people taste. If it's F…

> Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it. There are a very long list of things that are typically prohibited at work that would be fine "if you're an adult about it." There's a crossover point at which the population of workers becomes large enough that it is difficult or impossible to impose the "be an adult" requirement. The arbiters of responsibility cannot be within reach of all behav…

I think people need to say "this is fine for one organization, but not for another". Or one person and not another. One houseplant and not another.

American society is overly fond of one size fits all rules - that on one hand end up with adults being treated like children, and the dumbing down of culture and a restricting oeveryone's rights to protect the few from bad decisions - and on the other hand end up with overwatered cacti and tons of other kinds of shoddy work practices, and resulting products, because of a culture of not thinking just following the rules.

Neither of these problems are overwhelming - but fighting back with a realistic view of the world is simple, and effective at avoiding a whole mess of problems.

Re: Beer

#72

Post by rev_null »

mathattack wrote: post #12
tptacek wrote: post #9

Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment? That's what I think it is. Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of beer in our Chicago office (we haul crates from Russian River and Three Floyds and Jolly Pumpkin). But nobody drinks while they work, and nobody drinks whole bottles; we open a bottle and a bunch of people taste. If it's F…

Perhaps there's a difference in culture between bottles versus kegs? The former suggests restraint, the latter doesn't?

A really classy startup would stock wine, or perhaps a collection of single malt whiskeys.

Re: Beer

#73

Post by jiggy2011 »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #60
jiggy2011 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ask your attorney to enumerate possible disaster scenarios every time you make a decision relating to your business I'd guess you might decide that the whole thing was not worth the risk.

This is a straw man argument, and the type that can only appeal to a company wanting to make poor, ill-informed risk management decisions. No business can eliminate all risk, but some risks are unnecessary and easily eliminated. Serving alcohol to employees creates a significant amount of potential legal liability (it could literally bankrupt your company) but it is hard to reasonably and objectively argue that the p…

Assuming you are not operating dangerous machinery are you likely to be sued for simply allowing alcohol to be consumed? I can see that you might be held liable for some other problem of which alcohol might be a contributing factor but simply eliminating alcohol may well not solve that problem anyway.

The potential benefits of allowing responsible alcohol consumption might be more than you think, if it helps provide a relaxed atmosphere where people want to go to work and are less likely to jump ship to your competitor for a marginal pay increase.

Re: Beer

#74

Post by jbondeson »

kaitai wrote: post #33
jbondeson wrote: post #20

The better question is: why would you have people on staff who you wouldn't trust to be mature enough to handle the situation?

We're all human and we all mess things up. Most people most of the time are fine people. That's not really the question: the question is about costs and benefits when things go wrong. I'm a mature, responsible, smart, amazing, blahblahblah person much of the time. And then other times I'm not, and my failures are largely non-malicious -- just stupid. I'd guess the same is true of all of us.

Yes, we all mess things up, but that remains true with or without alcohol. But the fact of the matter is that there will be alcohol present at some time with company events, be it a summer picnic event, holiday party, or dinners. Not to mention the fact that your employees are going to be going out for happy hours together, and just because it doesn't happen on company property doesn't make it any less a company issue if two employees have an incident.

So I ask again why you would want to have someone on staff that you would think twice about giving access to beer in the office?

Re: Beer

#75

Post by smacktoward »

mgkimsal wrote: post #46

The beer culture is very very weird to me, and something I just don't get. I don't understand why companies don't promote an ice cream culture. Have custom flavors available throughout the day, a stocked freezer, etc. Sit back and have a sundae while discussing code problems. Try new toppings/sauces now and then, etc. I don't drink beer. When I was younger, it was mostly a financial issue. As I'm older, I just don't…

> I don't understand why companies don't promote an ice cream culture.

That could cause problems too: http://youtu.be/e5i6BHBuqxE?t=2m44s

(Though in fairness, in the video it's Tofutti, not ice cream.)

Re: Beer

#76

Post by yummyfajitas »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #60
jiggy2011 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ask your attorney to enumerate possible disaster scenarios every time you make a decision relating to your business I'd guess you might decide that the whole thing was not worth the risk.

This is a straw man argument, and the type that can only appeal to a company wanting to make poor, ill-informed risk management decisions. No business can eliminate all risk, but some risks are unnecessary and easily eliminated. Serving alcohol to employees creates a significant amount of potential legal liability (it could literally bankrupt your company) but it is hard to reasonably and objectively argue that the p…

If "ask your attorney" is good policy, it's good policy regardless of whether the topic is one that you find intuitively naughty or one you find intuitively innocuous.

One potential benefit - you signal to employees that your workplace is fun. Many growing companies will die if they don't get the right talent. Compare the large risk of getting the wrong people to the tiny risk of an employee getting drunk and raping/murdering everyone, and the calculus is far from clear.

Re: Beer

#77

Post by shanac »

mathattack wrote: post #68
shanac wrote: post #58

Just as a caveat - I know Anne. I'm also a lady, so, some of the sexism arguments both do and don't ring true. I'm not sure what I think. I've drunk alcohol in the office that had beer as a way of thinking through a problem. It worked. I also know a few engineers and other tech people who are alcoholics, and have admitted to me they spent serious time (and still do) in AA. I'm not sure the continual serving beer at p…

Finally, the one thing that does bother me - beer in tech companies usually means they want you to be there 24/7. Fine, ok - but you can do business elsewhere. For all you know interacting with some bartender may help you - and it isn't going to happen if your work life is also your social life, as implied by the kegs. This is very true, and includes other benefits too. Dinner is a cheap price for a few hours of deve…

I'm not sold that always being in the social context of work is healthy. And as my cofounder says "Keeping healthy is the cheapest way to get stuff done"

Further, productivity drops if you work 24/7.

On a personal level - time for other things (including laundry) outside of work does make me more productive because it gives me to time to think about work. The mind relaxes and you make connections you would not otherwise.

Re: Beer

#78

Post by bambax »

> think about what your devs really need (...) Sunlight, on occasion

I'm sure this is entirely tongue-in-cheek, but sunlight is extremely important; we don't get enough; all those people constantly attending "conferences" held indoors where they watch people talking on stage and slides flickering on a screen while never seeing the light of day make me sad.

Get out in the open. Look at the sky. Drop your iPod/iPhone/whatever. Think of nothing.

Re: Beer

#79

Post by mathattack »

dfxm12 wrote: post #56
mathattack wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my current employer, there's rarely a lot of beer in the fridge, and people won't grab one before 4:30 or 5:00 or early in the week. Outside of interns, the people most likely to grab 1 or 2 are the hardest workers in the office.

Are you implying your interns are the hardest workers (aside from those who grab 1 or 2 beers) or are you implying that interns grab 1 or 2 beers, just like your hardest workers?

The latter. We actively discourage interns from doing overtime.

Re: Beer

#80

Post by nilkn »

mgkimsal wrote: post #46

The beer culture is very very weird to me, and something I just don't get. I don't understand why companies don't promote an ice cream culture. Have custom flavors available throughout the day, a stocked freezer, etc. Sit back and have a sundae while discussing code problems. Try new toppings/sauces now and then, etc. I don't drink beer. When I was younger, it was mostly a financial issue. As I'm older, I just don't…

I also don't like the taste of beer and have never had a glass of beer I've really enjoyed. If I'm not careful, the aftertaste can actually gag me a little bit.

I've had one or two unpleasant encounters with people who truly can't accept that all beer tastes bad to me. One person went so far as to tell me that you can't dislike beer if you like bread because, you know, beer is just liquid bread. I've since learned to just never bring up my distaste for beer except possibly on forums like this. I'm sure there are more of us out there who just keep quiet about it.

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