Hacker News is a social echo chamber • Hacker News Board

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#181

Post by crusso » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 6:47 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #149

crusso wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of thought the same thing, but then again he didn't mention the direction of the disparity.

peer reviewed scientific, mathematical, or engineering papers > peer reviewed social science papers.

Right, I got that from the overall context. It's just that when one reads a comparison worded the way yours was, one expects the latter item to be the stressed and greater one. Eg:

Beth is nowhere near as good looking as Tricia.

Without other context, I'd assume that Tricia is much better looking according to the author of the comment.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#182

Post by foobarbazqux » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 7:05 PM UTC

moocowduckquack wrote: post #180

foobarbazqux wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is that with some particular topics, HN is unable. Agreed, it's actually just impossible to have a non-polarized discussion if people identify too strongly with one of the poles. This isn't unique to HN, we essentially live in a bipolar society. Even if you present a middle ground, someone identifying with either pole will assume you are identifying with the opposite pole, because they see that part of th…

reminds me of Crocker's rules - http://www.sl4.org/crocker.html

That's an interesting philosophy. I guess it's like that, with the exception that eventually I'll withdraw from a persistently hostile conversation because I know my own limits and I want to avoid getting destructively angry. Similarly, I'm learning to avoid saying precisely what I think on certain topics around certain people, even if I know that it's a balanced position, because dealing with the aftermath isn't worth it. But yes, it's nice hanging out with friends who don't get all worked up just because I happen to have an opinion that they don't share.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#183

Post by 011011100 » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 7:06 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #164

crusso wrote: post #130

The whole argument of the article is a non-starter: Building a social echo chamber risks marginalising us from the rest of society, gradually becoming ignored and irrelevant as our self-reinforcing opinions drift ever further away from the mainstream I don't consume movies, books, music, food, web sites, or much of anything else because they're "mainstream". I do so because they have a high degree of quality that hol…

Yes, I agree. "Echo-chamber" and "bubble" are features. Having a informative and effective discussion at a high level, and having opinions moved, predicates a high degree of common ground. Effectively challenging somebody's worldview doesn't begin with "everything you consider true is false, now listen to me" as is sometimes the preferred method of radicals. Being bombarded with information and viewpoints you conside…

An echo chamber fosters confidence in a single perspective, or a small subset of many perspectives. And not everything we speak about is mathematical and can be formalized so that we can have confidence in a single perspective (social, political issues).

Can you, in particular, handle being confident in one perspective and being able to acknowledge, understand, and evaluate another? Maybe. Can most people? I don't think so.

"Having a informative and effective discussion at a high level, and having opinions moved, predicates a high degree of common ground."

We can agree on definitions, but that's not necessarily an echo chamber. An echo chamber, or the negative kind of echo chamber, is when a (nonmathematical, nonformal) perspective or conclusion is reinforced by the entire community.

Example: "everybody has the same opportunities and therefore everybody is equally capable of achieving success". You get people on hacker news asserting this all the time. This is not a definition. This is dogma.

"Being bombarded with information and viewpoints you consider wrongheaded doesn't expand your horizon, it galvanises you."

Key phrase: "[ideas] you consider wrongheaded". Nobody has all the right ideas from the start. A priori, there is no reason to think that you will never encounter any ideas which appear wrongheaded to you at first.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#184

Post by theorique » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 7:19 PM UTC

foobarbazqux wrote: post #148

mikeash wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would HN be a particularly good venue for that conversation? There are a lot of smart people here, but a lot of the factors that make HN a good place for technical discussions make it a horrible place for softer discussions like those about sexism.

> a lot of the factors that make HN a good place for technical discussions make it a horrible place for softer discussions like those about sexism. Such as being 5% female.

On the contrary, that would make it better. We can have a rational discussion without all the drama. ;)

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#185

Post by Steko » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 7:25 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #95

"The original story linked to a review of peer-reviewed scientific research." I believe the credit we assign to peer reviewed scientific, mathematical, or engineering papers shouldn't be anywhere near the same weight we assign to peer reviewed social science papers. I dealt with quite a lot of these papers early in my career and they do a wonderful job of backing up grant proposals but a poor job of being correct. My…

"My takeaway was that they tried to present some idea as universal "

Strange apologia. This isn't about whether it was a good article or not or the relative merits of peer reviewed social science. It's about whether it's good for the community when top articles are disappeared by a bunch of dittoheads simply because pg was critical.

Before pg post: top article.

After pg post: flagged to oblivion.

If that's going to be the case than it would be better for the community that pg had not commented in that post. Which is unfortunate because pg is very insightful and I think right in that case. Insight is wasted when it's buried on page 10.

The fault obviously is the poor use/abuse of the flagging power and has been extensively documented previously. I've seen zero evidence that it adds anything to this site. Make it cost 100 or 1000 karma to flag something and maybe it can work.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#186

Post by libicu48 » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 7:26 PM UTC

I'm reading the comments on his site and he's apparently deleting any comment that goes against his radical feminist ideology. Hilarious. He's also fat.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#187

Post by asdasf » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 7:30 PM UTC

nyan_sandwich wrote: post #156

MartinCron wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some topics that show up on HN frequently, but the discussion is incredibly poor every single time. I've given up on upvoting/downvoting any such discussions and simply don't read them anymore. This includes everything on sexism in tech. I don't blame you, but I find it especially sad, because sexism in tech is one area that actually needs more meaningful nuanced discussion. Not to be too elitist, but if we…

>if we can't have this conversation, who can? lesswrong.com is typically able to discuss difficult topics much more rationally than the rest of the internet.

Unfortunately, a large subset of the people who wish to have the conversation, consider lesswrong.com to be sexist and that being "logical" and "rational" are part of the problem. I don't believe it is a conversation that can actually be productive, at all.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#188

Post by Steko » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 7:35 PM UTC

Hilariously, this article appears to be flagged far below it would naturally score atm.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#189

Post by asdasf » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 7:36 PM UTC

darkchasma wrote: post #167

damoncali wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can no longer flag because I flagged every inappropriate political post on the front page for a couple days. (It was a pretty bad stretch). I knew it wouldn't help much but it made me feel better. As a result I was flag-banned.

I'm guessing that if you're banned from flagging, then the political posts weren't inappropriate, but your behaviour was.

Or it is just a crude "this person flagged too often" filter, and he was actually being helpful and was punished for it.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#190

Post by asdasf » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 7:39 PM UTC

lemmsjid wrote: post #125

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #5

Stories that discuss the difficulties faced by minorities in our field are summarily disappeared. Really? I've tended to notice the opposite: new ones are constantly appearing, they get lots of comments, inspire heated debates and most sentiments are sympathetic, sometimes to an almost unhealthy and postmodern degree.

Count me as one of the unhealthily sympathetic. That said, different people and/or cultures have more or less tolerance for argument. One person's 'spirited debate' can be another's 'flamewar'. Now, preface my following comments with the fact that I don't have data to back them up, so really you can take or leave what I'm about to say--if it resonates, then maybe I'm on to something--if it doesn't, then maybe I'm jus…

>So when a woman who is traumatized writes an article out of anger, there is inherent value in that

But that doesn't mean there is value to it being posted here. I don't think it is surprising or bad that angry rants disappear quickly, while a dispassionate analysis lives on.