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Hacker News is a social echo chamber

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Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#151

Post by tehwalrus »

humanrebar wrote: post #123
tehwalrus wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gotten into several interesting discussions on these topics, only to have them rapidly drop from the front page and/or be killed. In general, I think this should be seen as a much bigger issue than it is on HN. I generally take the view that if everyone is complaining, then the middle ground is being struck. The classic example is the BBC - the BNP (British National Party, nasty fascists) often claim the BBC has…

In the spirit of interesting discussion and congenial disagreements, I believe you're committing the argument to moderation fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation The existence of two parties arguing does not imply that: 1. All views are more-or-less represented 2. All views fit on a one-dimensional spectrum 3. A middle view is more desirable than either "extreme" view (or even desirable at all)…

Interesting, I'll take a look.

I also proudly call myself a political centrist, mostly out of the idea that I'm an Empiricist, and all politicians make some extraordinary claims that can't be substantiated and some more moderate ones that overlap and are more likely to be correct - (breathe) which I think may fall under the same fallacy. Food for thought (and re-thought,) thank you.

(especially interesting since, as a Lib Dem, I get quite cross about people saying politics fits onto a 1D axis, so I clearly don't even believe the premises of the fallacy in full!)

EDIT: from just a few minutes of reading, this concept (which I've held in my mind for a while) makes me think less well of compromise for compromise's sake:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

I probably still think the BBC isn't biased though - especially given the difference between different programmes, even just on R4 the comedy is very left-biased.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#152

Post by jlgreco »

MartinCron wrote: post #114
potatolicious wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- I flag stories only if it seems like the story is abusive, not just off-topic (e.g., overly self-promotional, complete noise, etc). This happens very rarely. - I don't usually upvote stories. I only do so if I have a very immediate "holy shit this is amazing!" reaction to it. - I upvote comments frequently, particularly if it's a good, well-argued point done in good style (i.e., more factual than rhetoric). I downv…

There are some topics that show up on HN frequently, but the discussion is incredibly poor every single time. I've given up on upvoting/downvoting any such discussions and simply don't read them anymore. This includes everything on sexism in tech. I don't blame you, but I find it especially sad, because sexism in tech is one area that actually needs more meaningful nuanced discussion. Not to be too elitist, but if we…

Those sort of discussions are probably most effective when had in "meatspace" (I dislike that term, but I dislike the term "real world" even more). No 'throwaways', fewer 'throw away opinions', no voting systems or flagging, greater communication bandwidth (access to body language and tone reduces misunderstandings), etc.

Trying to get HN to productively discuss topics like this is like trying to get 4chan to "count to 10". The site just really isn't set up to facilitate it.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#153

Post by MartianObserver »

DougWebb wrote: post #37

I'm curious how many people who have the ability to upvote or flag stories actually do so. For my part, I'm very conservative: - I never flag stories; I may not find a story interesting, but I don't feel it's appropriate to impose my interests on others or 'police' their discussions. - I rarely upvote stories, mostly because I'm usually browsing stories that are already on the front-page. Occasionally I skim through…

Yep, let's ignore the main issues raised by the post and have a meta discussion instead.

- Leftist orthodoxy (Keynesian good/Austrian bad, etc.) - Disappearing dissenters (HeckBanning, NegVotesToOblivion) - Apple the Immaculate (and Saint Jobs the Perfect) - All startups are equal (but YC's are more equaler than others)

Please HeckBan this and prove the points made about HN's accoustics and whatnot. Whatever you do, must not upArrow and offend the hive mind.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#154

Post by koko775 »

chollida1 wrote: post #127
DougWebb wrote: post #37

I'm curious how many people who have the ability to upvote or flag stories actually do so. For my part, I'm very conservative: - I never flag stories; I may not find a story interesting, but I don't feel it's appropriate to impose my interests on others or 'police' their discussions. - I rarely upvote stories, mostly because I'm usually browsing stories that are already on the front-page. Occasionally I skim through…

> - I never flag stories; I may not find a story interesting, but I don't feel it's appropriate to impose my interests on others or 'police' their discussions. I used to until I lost the ability. I guess the impulse came from stackoverflow, where you are encourage to try and make the site better by editing and flagging poor items. I used to go to the new page and flag 3-5 stories a day. I thought this was a benefit t…

I avoid voting for exactly this reason. I prefer to filter the noise myself by ignoring it over decreasing it for others, and the only reason for this is that I don't want to be penalized for it.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#155

Post by beat »

untog wrote: post #70
beat wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't we just admit that this whole post is just a response to offense at a single post getting bopped off the front page because of a flamewar, when some people really want it on the front page? It's a lot easier when we aren't tippy-toeing around the actual issue. Sure, the problems of that post were symptomatic of the broader social algorithms of HN, but I don't think they mean HN's rules and the underlying en…

Why don't we just admit that this whole post is just a response to offense at a single post But it isn't, though - the post you replied to was specifically discussing that. The OP said: a place focused on particular subjects [...] collects people with similar life experiences, interests, worldviews, etc. which makes it sound very much like people from different backgrounds are going to face social rejection. If we're…

The "similar life experiences, interests, worldviews" really refers to being in the IT industry, especially on the startup side of things. I don't think gender or race issues are nearly as much a cause for exclusion here as, say, being a restauranteur rather than a programmer would be.

Tech may not be a pure meritocracy, but it's far closer to one than most fields, and most of the discrimination I've seen has come from management, not programmers. Female and non-white engineers are regarded for their capabilities first and foremost.

I was just discussing this yesterday with my daughter. She's studying to be a teacher, and is deeply involved with social justice issues (I credit her with improving my sensitivity on gender, which was already pretty good). I was talking about how I go back and forth a bit on what I can or should do to encourage African-American teens to go into IT. One of the advantages that I perceive is that it's the source of a good, secure middle class living with very little racial discrimination relative to other fields. But the disadvantage is that there's very little African-American participation in the industry. I come down on the side of encouragement because we need pioneers, and because good middle-class security is becoming harder to come by in America.

But to get back to the original point - the cultural divide around here isn't really about gender or race, which is the point of the OP's essay.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#156

Post by nyan_sandwich »

MartinCron wrote: post #114
potatolicious wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- I flag stories only if it seems like the story is abusive, not just off-topic (e.g., overly self-promotional, complete noise, etc). This happens very rarely. - I don't usually upvote stories. I only do so if I have a very immediate "holy shit this is amazing!" reaction to it. - I upvote comments frequently, particularly if it's a good, well-argued point done in good style (i.e., more factual than rhetoric). I downv…

There are some topics that show up on HN frequently, but the discussion is incredibly poor every single time. I've given up on upvoting/downvoting any such discussions and simply don't read them anymore. This includes everything on sexism in tech. I don't blame you, but I find it especially sad, because sexism in tech is one area that actually needs more meaningful nuanced discussion. Not to be too elitist, but if we…

>if we can't have this conversation, who can?

lesswrong.com is typically able to discuss difficult topics much more rationally than the rest of the internet.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#157

Post by the_watcher »

jlgreco wrote: post #63
the_watcher wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of Hacker News isn't "to discuss things that (insert whoever currently is complaining that the HN front page doesn't match what their list of most important links is) I think are important." It's to discuss what hackers find interesting. This is explicitly stated in the goal of the site. Hacker News isn't a democracy, there are other places on the internet to find that. ADDENDUM: To those who counter that H…

Well, if we are going to truly embrace that premise, then I see little room to be upset. Discussions being flagged off is the HN system acting undemocratically to shape the discussion to its tastes. The flamewar detection system isn't smacking down topics , it smacks down types of discussions. Certain topics seem to generate little but flamewar and get regularly smacked down, indicating to me that HN has little inter…

I think we agree.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#158

Post by scott_s »

Hacker News is a meta-experiment on confirmation bias. In every meta-discussion I see on the "bias" in HN, there is always someone saying "HN is biased against X" and "HN is biased against not X". It's in the comments linked in this story, and I see it all over HN itself. My best explanation for that is an individual's confirmation bias.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#159

Post by mikeash »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #148
mikeash wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would HN be a particularly good venue for that conversation? There are a lot of smart people here, but a lot of the factors that make HN a good place for technical discussions make it a horrible place for softer discussions like those about sexism.

> a lot of the factors that make HN a good place for technical discussions make it a horrible place for softer discussions like those about sexism. Such as being 5% female.

While that certainly makes it a bad place for the sexism discussion, that certainly does not make it a good place for technical discussions!

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#160

Post by foolrush »

mikeash wrote: post #145
MartinCron wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some topics that show up on HN frequently, but the discussion is incredibly poor every single time. I've given up on upvoting/downvoting any such discussions and simply don't read them anymore. This includes everything on sexism in tech. I don't blame you, but I find it especially sad, because sexism in tech is one area that actually needs more meaningful nuanced discussion. Not to be too elitist, but if we…

Why would HN be a particularly good venue for that conversation? There are a lot of smart people here, but a lot of the factors that make HN a good place for technical discussions make it a horrible place for softer discussions like those about sexism.

I am still rather surprised at the number of HN folks that believe we can somehow detach the socio-political / cultural / gender aspects of society from the technological choices.

The notion that HN should only focus on the “technology” establishes a rather broken model, where no such polemic or axis exists.

Are there not potentially greater entrepreneurial opportunities for a collective that has a holistic view of the culture?

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