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Hacker News is a social echo chamber

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121–130 of 206 posts

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#121

Especially after pg's response to the blog post about sexual assault at CodeMash, I wonder—why can't the flamewar detector just disable comments? I tend to have a lot of respect for pg, and found his apology for what happened in that thread to be admirable. Whether or not preventing discussion of the issue on HN is positive or negative...I have very complex feelings on the issue, and see valid arguments on both sides…

The day any comment thread can be closed because it satisfies some criteria for a "flame war" is the last day I'll even think about posting here again.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#122
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see an issue with that. There are other venues for discussing certain things. This isn't to say that these topics are bad, just that at the time, they really don't belong here.

But the principle feels odd to me. Flags appear to be more powerful than upvotes. So a minority of users can remove stories the majority wants to see.

Got to haze the newbies somehow.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#123

Stories that discuss the difficulties faced by minorities in our field are summarily disappeared. Really? I've tended to notice the opposite: new ones are constantly appearing, they get lots of comments, inspire heated debates and most sentiments are sympathetic, sometimes to an almost unhealthy and postmodern degree.

I've gotten into several interesting discussions on these topics, only to have them rapidly drop from the front page and/or be killed. In general, I think this should be seen as a much bigger issue than it is on HN. I generally take the view that if everyone is complaining, then the middle ground is being struck. The classic example is the BBC - the BNP (British National Party, nasty fascists) often claim the BBC has…

In the spirit of interesting discussion and congenial disagreements, I believe you're committing the argument to moderation fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

The existence of two parties arguing does not imply that:

1. All views are more-or-less represented 2. All views fit on a one-dimensional spectrum 3. A middle view is more desirable than either "extreme" view (or even desirable at all).

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#124
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see an issue with that. There are other venues for discussing certain things. This isn't to say that these topics are bad, just that at the time, they really don't belong here.

But the principle feels odd to me. Flags appear to be more powerful than upvotes. So a minority of users can remove stories the majority wants to see.

> So a minority of users can remove stories the majority wants to see.

You mean, they want to see it here. And that's the problem. Just because a majority want to see it doesn't mean it should be seen here. And yes, a minority of users who've proven themselves over the years to understand the difference between on-topic and off-topic should have some power of this process.

HN is curated, and it's not just curated by the majority. And me, and many others are fine with that. It's what makes HN the way it is. Removing that effectively turns HN into Reddit.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#125

Stories that discuss the difficulties faced by minorities in our field are summarily disappeared. Really? I've tended to notice the opposite: new ones are constantly appearing, they get lots of comments, inspire heated debates and most sentiments are sympathetic, sometimes to an almost unhealthy and postmodern degree.

Count me as one of the unhealthily sympathetic. That said, different people and/or cultures have more or less tolerance for argument. One person's 'spirited debate' can be another's 'flamewar'.

Now, preface my following comments with the fact that I don't have data to back them up, so really you can take or leave what I'm about to say--if it resonates, then maybe I'm on to something--if it doesn't, then maybe I'm just projecting.

What I've noticed is a pattern that a dispassionate article about the plight of women in the tech industry will survive, but an article by a woman who is actively angry about being harassed will get a large number of angry, devaluing comments and will disappear very quickly.

On a positive note, this reflects a culture that values a level of scientific detachment, and also a recognition of the fact that Internet arguments can get very circular and ugly and can ultimately destroy an online community if left unchecked.

The problem is that this pattern also belies a cultural devaluation of the role of anger in combating trauma. Where trauma exists, anger will exist. Angry people are not always fair and balanced--in fact the state of the emotion actively undermines such a thing. Anger and scientific detachment are quite antithetical, because an angry person is very much inside of the thing they're supposed to be detached about--and it's hurting them.

So when a woman who is traumatized writes an article out of anger, there is inherent value in that, even if the anger behind the article makes it one-sided, because in the end that person is (bravely, in the face of the inevitable harassment that will come of it) bearing witness to what is (in my own experience) a major problem in the industry, a problem that is not only hurting people but limiting the talent pool significantly.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#126

"The original story linked to a review of peer-reviewed scientific research." I believe the credit we assign to peer reviewed scientific, mathematical, or engineering papers shouldn't be anywhere near the same weight we assign to peer reviewed social science papers. I dealt with quite a lot of these papers early in my career and they do a wonderful job of backing up grant proposals but a poor job of being correct. My…

While my inclination is to agree with your critical view of social science research, I think picking at this example misses the point of the article. The idea that 'hivemind' discussions are drowning out 'other' viewpoints has merit with respect to this forum. There are copious examples, from role-of-government discussions to technical preferences. Indeed, there are cases where the community massively promotes dubiou…

That assumes that the purpose of HN is to be a debate site, or a 20th century "fairness doctrine" media outlet, or a town-hall style public forum. I do not think any HN is any of those things or well-suited to become one.

Most of the useful and interesting things that come out of HN are in threads that assume the answer to the big question and make some interesting point about the details.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#127

I'm curious how many people who have the ability to upvote or flag stories actually do so. For my part, I'm very conservative: - I never flag stories; I may not find a story interesting, but I don't feel it's appropriate to impose my interests on others or 'police' their discussions. - I rarely upvote stories, mostly because I'm usually browsing stories that are already on the front-page. Occasionally I skim through…

> - I never flag stories; I may not find a story interesting, but I don't feel it's appropriate to impose my interests on others or 'police' their discussions.

I used to until I lost the ability. I guess the impulse came from stackoverflow, where you are encourage to try and make the site better by editing and flagging poor items.

I used to go to the new page and flag 3-5 stories a day. I thought this was a benefit to the community and one way I could help make it better.

Finally one day I lost the ability to flag. I assumed a moderator didn't like one of the stories I'd flagged and took the privileged away.

No good dead goes unpunished:)

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#128
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are some of the most respected and the smartest commenters on this site unwilling to have an intellectually honest debate? Unwilling? No, HN is more than willing to have a good debate. The issue is that with some particular topics, HN is unable . HN is not a perfect platform for intelligent discussion. It is unable to handle certain types discussions and the only effective mechanism it has to keep those discuss…

> The issue is that with some particular topics, HN is unable. Agreed, it's actually just impossible to have a non-polarized discussion if people identify too strongly with one of the poles. This isn't unique to HN, we essentially live in a bipolar society. Even if you present a middle ground, someone identifying with either pole will assume you are identifying with the opposite pole, because they see that part of th…

> Nevertheless, these discussions are good for clarifying your understanding of the world, just try not to expect much in the way of respect, appreciation, agreement, or understanding.

That's a good point; an effective compromise may be to allow heavily flagged discussions to continue after being pushed off the front page, instead of [dead]'ing them (which halts conversation abruptly.) This is actually what happens currently most of the time (as far as I have seen anyway) and I don't think it is particularly bad. The people who are already involved in a discussion can continue it, but more people are not drawn into it as the poisonous discussion doesn't stay visible on the front page.

Re: Hacker News is a social echo chamber

#130
The whole argument of the article is a non-starter:

Building a social echo chamber risks marginalising us from the rest of society, gradually becoming ignored and irrelevant as our self-reinforcing opinions drift ever further away from the mainstream

I don't consume movies, books, music, food, web sites, or much of anything else because they're "mainstream".

I do so because they have a high degree of quality that holds my interests. Mainstream is often the opposite of quality.

The more mainstream HN becomes, the less desirable it becomes. If I wanted mainstream I'd spend more time looking at Slashdot and Reddit.

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