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Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

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Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#71

Post by walshemj »

3825 wrote: post #32
cjensen wrote: post #15

This is a good lesson for those of us making programs who "need" to charge a certain price in order to make a living. There is something in the human psyche that really wants to make a connection between the price of an item and the living conditions of the seller or the buyer. The lesson is this: the Law of Supply and Demand is not interested in your rationalizations or ad-hoc reasoning about "fair" pricing. In this…

As Shirley says: > For another, what does 80k really mean? Is it the average of their base salaries or their total costs of employment? And who are included in this average? Certainly, if management salaries are included, it'd unreasonably skew the data! I am concerned why there are 217 people in management. I am sure we can find some other people who will work in management for less. Fire the management! If it were…

I suspect management covers all the professional grades as well you know the HR, marketing, securitty and professional engineers not just those with strict line management roles.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#72

Post by walshemj »

nknighthb wrote: post #31
dxhdr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More than these peasants deserve, right? I mean, why should people providing a vital service to a city feel entitled to live amongst the betters they serve? No kidding, this is highly skilled labor we're talking about. Not to mention the years of schooling and study required to excel at the profession. These jobs aren't easy to fill.

Are you willing to do the work? And who cares if it's highly skilled? Isn't price decoupled from cost? If you're going to argue from a capitalist perspective, be consistent.

Theres no Big guy with a white beard who's going to reach down and say "you yes you with 2.2 in business studies from Luton University are worth X and those uppity train drivers must work for minimum wage"

Ps Luton is the Uni that props up the bottom of the university league tables in the UK

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#73

Post by bayareaguy »

lnanek2 wrote: post #21

Looks above the cost of living everywhere except SF. And there you just have to knock it down to one kid and you are fine. I don't think the equivalent of a bus driver should be able to live in a super over priced city like SF and still be able to have a bunch of kids. It's not a big deal to commute in from Oakland and other areas. Should they be able to afford their own Manhattan apartments for a bunch of kids too n…

Says the game developer who sells virtual goods...

I've lived in the bay area longer than BART has been in operation, and I'd rather see my fares raised to pay the BART employees even more so that they can focus on the safety and security of the system instead of having to be worred about being evicted to make room for some virtual good merchant.

BART workers directly help millions of people in the bay area every day and provide far more value to the bay area community and economy relative to what they are paid then do the participants in this forum.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#74

Post by 3825 »

walshemj wrote: post #71
3825 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Shirley says: > For another, what does 80k really mean? Is it the average of their base salaries or their total costs of employment? And who are included in this average? Certainly, if management salaries are included, it'd unreasonably skew the data! I am concerned why there are 217 people in management. I am sure we can find some other people who will work in management for less. Fire the management! If it were…

I suspect management covers all the professional grades as well you know the HR, marketing, securitty and professional engineers not just those with strict line management roles.

Hm... I guess I got a little carried away. I still don't understand why a security instructor or an engineer would be considered management. I'm sure there's a rationale. Somebody want to help me understand this concept?

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#75

Post by anovikov »

anigbrowl wrote: post #50
anovikov wrote: post #45

This somehow misses out the fact that in a married couple having 'childcare' expenses, there are supposed to be 2 earners. With a gender gap of about 30% for married women that leaves about 60k a year of wife's income or about $3500 after taxes per month which should leave no problem making ends meet. Leaving wife out of work is reserved for the upper class nowadays, even not all of them. Definitely not for the bus d…

Childcare != daycare. Even if one parent stays at home, you still have buy special clothing, children need more medical attention, school supplies etc. etc. Leaving wife out of work is reserved for the upper class nowadays, even not all of them. Definitely not for the bus drivers. It used to be that quite normal across all classes for one parent to go out to work and one to look after the family. One wonders what the…

Anyways that's not about it. Unions have bargaining powers and that's only reason why these drivers are paid any more than walmart gatekeepers. Hard fact. And they will be automated away very soon. It was very stupid to do what they do in the city of hackers where automating them was the first idea everyone had being stuck unable to commute to work.

Unions may be strong but it is very stupid to commit outright suicide.

Also one thing is when say, auto workers are going on strike. They can have a lot of popular support. Not with bus drivers who are going to alienate everyone ever riding a bus, and people will support any solution allowing to get rid of them.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#76

Post by seehafer »

anigbrowl wrote: post #50
anovikov wrote: post #45

This somehow misses out the fact that in a married couple having 'childcare' expenses, there are supposed to be 2 earners. With a gender gap of about 30% for married women that leaves about 60k a year of wife's income or about $3500 after taxes per month which should leave no problem making ends meet. Leaving wife out of work is reserved for the upper class nowadays, even not all of them. Definitely not for the bus d…

Childcare != daycare. Even if one parent stays at home, you still have buy special clothing, children need more medical attention, school supplies etc. etc. Leaving wife out of work is reserved for the upper class nowadays, even not all of them. Definitely not for the bus drivers. It used to be that quite normal across all classes for one parent to go out to work and one to look after the family. One wonders what the…

You can easily live nowadays on a one-parent income... just not in the Bay Area. I lived in the Dallas area and that was the norm -- and not just for middle-income tech people either. A modest house (that doesn't cost much) and only one car (as it was in the 50's) and you can get by on a 60-70K salary, even taking into account childcare.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#77

Post by cjensen »

scarmig wrote: post #44
cjensen wrote: post #15

This is a good lesson for those of us making programs who "need" to charge a certain price in order to make a living. There is something in the human psyche that really wants to make a connection between the price of an item and the living conditions of the seller or the buyer. The lesson is this: the Law of Supply and Demand is not interested in your rationalizations or ad-hoc reasoning about "fair" pricing. In this…

You've got to be willing to bite the bullet though with that philosophy: Almost the entirety of the BART management's public argument has been "BART workers get paid so much and get more benefits than you do!" And you've got to equally condemn that, because the level of healthcare you personally receive has no bearing on what BART workers should. Back in reality, yes, the cost of living in an area does matter, and if…

You're mistaken -- that was not a condemnation of the employees. Just observing the erroneous reasoning about the problem -- which as you say, also applies to management -- which I hope people can take to heart in their own business.

I don't know enough about BART to have an opinion. I would observe that, given the liberal situation in the BART counties, that employees have probably been treated as well as possible. I also understand that management intends to break that cycle in this round. Right, wrong? That's a lifetime of understanding I lack in order to have an opinion.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#78

Post by anovikov »

seehafer wrote: post #76
anigbrowl wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Childcare != daycare. Even if one parent stays at home, you still have buy special clothing, children need more medical attention, school supplies etc. etc. Leaving wife out of work is reserved for the upper class nowadays, even not all of them. Definitely not for the bus drivers. It used to be that quite normal across all classes for one parent to go out to work and one to look after the family. One wonders what the…

You can easily live nowadays on a one-parent income... just not in the Bay Area. I lived in the Dallas area and that was the norm -- and not just for middle-income tech people either. A modest house (that doesn't cost much) and only one car (as it was in the 50's) and you can get by on a 60-70K salary, even taking into account childcare.

You can, but the standards of consumption changed to reflect working spouses, so with wife not working, most people will look like losers. That's life and it's not the problem of bus drivers only. If one doesn't like that he can turn sexist and beat wife locking her up at home, see how far he goes... Like it or not but living standards - in both material and behaviourial sense - imply working spouses for everyone except upper class folks (and even them usually have spouses working to avoid looking sexist and old-fashioned).

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#79

Post by sxywu »

I have added a toggle for including a second income earner into the equation/bar graph. The figure is an average of the median per capita income of four Bay Area counties - hopefully this will give better context.

Also, more explicit "Customize" buttons to encourage people to play around with and edit the data :D

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#80

Post by walshemj »

3825 wrote: post #74
walshemj wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect management covers all the professional grades as well you know the HR, marketing, securitty and professional engineers not just those with strict line management roles.

Hm... I guess I got a little carried away. I still don't understand why a security instructor or an engineer would be considered management. I'm sure there's a rationale. Somebody want to help me understand this concept?

Because thats how they are recorded by HR for reporting purposes and in the US to make them exempt grades.

99.99% of HN readers who work in tech will be considered management/professional grades even if you dont formally "manage" anyone

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