Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

sxywu.github.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 82 posts

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#41

Post by darklajid »

For me the breakdown was great.

I can understand numbers like housing and expected them to be a bit higher (frankly? $1795 in EUR is roundabout 1300. My current budget for a new home - I'm actively looking - is 1200 EUR for my family of 3.5). Food obviously varies. I never thought about child care before I became a dad, but I understand that number quite well now.

What totally blew me away was healthcare. Wow. How is that worth another rent, a second apartment?

(I won't talk about absolutes too much - they obviously are local. In absolute terms nearly every salary on that page is _big_ in DE and IT might pay less than a BART mechanic gets. But again - local, really different situations etc.)

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#42

Post by nknighthb »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #39
nknighthb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unskilled, replaceable labor Go get a job as a BART driver. Report back how unskilled and replaceable they are. And report your salary. It'll be lower than you're expecting. All the numbers you're being fed (including the ones on the linked page) are misleading unless you actually consider them from the perspective of a BART employee progressing through his career from the beginning.

I am not going to do what you suggested. If you want to explain why you think Bart driving is skilled, hard to replace labor, that would be productive, but telling me to change my career is not an argument. It is not exactly a revelation that people just starting out in a career get paid less than experienced folks, especially in labor markets controlled by unions.

> I am not going to do what you suggested.

Then what makes you think you can argue they're overpaid?

> If you want to explain why you think Bart driving is skilled, hard to replace labor

I know absolutely no one who has not gone through significant training who I would trust at the controls of a huge vehicle like a bus or train. I also don't know many people who want to drive around at night alone picking strangers up.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#43

Post by jamesaguilar »

nknighthb wrote: post #42
jamesaguilar wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not going to do what you suggested. If you want to explain why you think Bart driving is skilled, hard to replace labor, that would be productive, but telling me to change my career is not an argument. It is not exactly a revelation that people just starting out in a career get paid less than experienced folks, especially in labor markets controlled by unions.

> I am not going to do what you suggested. Then what makes you think you can argue they're overpaid? > If you want to explain why you think Bart driving is skilled, hard to replace labor I know absolutely no one who has not gone through significant training who I would trust at the controls of a huge vehicle like a bus or train. I also don't know many people who want to drive around at night alone picking strangers u…

Same thing that makes you think you can argue they are underpaid.

> I know absolutely no one ...

How many people do you know who only have a high school diploma? Who have no other options that pay more than $60k/year?

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#44

Post by scarmig »

cjensen wrote: post #15

This is a good lesson for those of us making programs who "need" to charge a certain price in order to make a living. There is something in the human psyche that really wants to make a connection between the price of an item and the living conditions of the seller or the buyer. The lesson is this: the Law of Supply and Demand is not interested in your rationalizations or ad-hoc reasoning about "fair" pricing. In this…

You've got to be willing to bite the bullet though with that philosophy:

Almost the entirety of the BART management's public argument has been "BART workers get paid so much and get more benefits than you do!" And you've got to equally condemn that, because the level of healthcare you personally receive has no bearing on what BART workers should.

Back in reality, yes, the cost of living in an area does matter, and if BART workers got paid 2x the median salary, they'd be being paid too much.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#45

Post by anovikov »

This somehow misses out the fact that in a married couple having 'childcare' expenses, there are supposed to be 2 earners. With a gender gap of about 30% for married women that leaves about 60k a year of wife's income or about $3500 after taxes per month which should leave no problem making ends meet. Leaving wife out of work is reserved for the upper class nowadays, even not all of them. Definitely not for the bus drivers.

Also if the wife does not work, why do they have childcare expenses from? What is the wife doing then?

And, bus drivers don't need to save for retirement, unlike us coders, so they don't really need to save at all, union cares for them.

And they are not supposed to have transportation costs since they ride for free.

I am starting to think we will get self-driven buses long before we get self-driven cars...

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#46

Post by nknighthb »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #43
nknighthb wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not going to do what you suggested. Then what makes you think you can argue they're overpaid? > If you want to explain why you think Bart driving is skilled, hard to replace labor I know absolutely no one who has not gone through significant training who I would trust at the controls of a huge vehicle like a bus or train. I also don't know many people who want to drive around at night alone picking strangers u…

Same thing that makes you think you can argue they are underpaid. > I know absolutely no one ... How many people do you know who only have a high school diploma? Who have no other options that pay more than $60k/year?

Hmm... did I say they were underpaid?

> How many people do you know who only have a high school diploma?

My parents, all my grandparents, most of my aunts and uncles, most of my cousins. I would say "me", but that would be a lie, because I don't even have a high school diploma. Not sure about friends and acquaintances. Most of them are tech workers, so formal education rarely comes up.

> Who have no other options that pay more than $60k/year?

Lots of the people I mention, including myself, make or have in the past made more than $60k/year (at least inflation-adjusted).

Pieces of paper from a broken educational system are not determinant of how much someone can or should make.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#47

Post by anigbrowl »

jonknee wrote: post #36

$607 a month for transportation seems odd since BART workers and their families ride for free (even after retirement!): http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23778144/barts-f...

True, though outside of SF and Berkeley Oakland, far fewer people are within walking distance of a BART station, so a lot of people have to drive there. It's easy to forget this if you're carless (as I am) until you go somewhere else and need to figure out how to continue your journey beyond BART. Look at a geographical map and see how far apart the stations are at the extremities.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#48

Post by jamesaguilar »

nknighthb wrote: post #46
jamesaguilar wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing that makes you think you can argue they are underpaid. > I know absolutely no one ... How many people do you know who only have a high school diploma? Who have no other options that pay more than $60k/year?

Hmm... did I say they were underpaid? > How many people do you know who only have a high school diploma? My parents, all my grandparents, most of my aunts and uncles, most of my cousins. I would say "me", but that would be a lie, because I don't even have a high school diploma. Not sure about friends and acquaintances. Most of them are tech workers, so formal education rarely comes up. > Who have no other options tha…

You implied that they should be paid enough to live in downtown SF, which I think is equivalent to claiming they should be paid more. If not, let's just assume I can come up with some convoluted reason why I'm not talking about their pay either, and we can just stop talking about it.

> Pieces of paper from a broken educational system are not determinant of how much someone can or should make.

Certainly agree with that. The demand for the work you can do and your ability to do the work with quality should be the main determinants. So I guess we'll see how much the city is willing to pay, and how far the BART workers are willing to push them before they just get replaced. Our discussion on the matter is kind of a non-factor.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#49

Post by nknighthb »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #48
nknighthb wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm... did I say they were underpaid? > How many people do you know who only have a high school diploma? My parents, all my grandparents, most of my aunts and uncles, most of my cousins. I would say "me", but that would be a lie, because I don't even have a high school diploma. Not sure about friends and acquaintances. Most of them are tech workers, so formal education rarely comes up. > Who have no other options tha…

You implied that they should be paid enough to live in downtown SF, which I think is equivalent to claiming they should be paid more. If not, let's just assume I can come up with some convoluted reason why I'm not talking about their pay either, and we can just stop talking about it. > Pieces of paper from a broken educational system are not determinant of how much someone can or should make. Certainly agree with tha…

What I implied is that arguing they shouldn't is detached elitism.

You're free to stop talking about anything you want at any time.

Re: Annual Income and Cost of Living for BART Employees

#50

Post by anigbrowl »

anovikov wrote: post #45

This somehow misses out the fact that in a married couple having 'childcare' expenses, there are supposed to be 2 earners. With a gender gap of about 30% for married women that leaves about 60k a year of wife's income or about $3500 after taxes per month which should leave no problem making ends meet. Leaving wife out of work is reserved for the upper class nowadays, even not all of them. Definitely not for the bus d…

Childcare != daycare. Even if one parent stays at home, you still have buy special clothing, children need more medical attention, school supplies etc. etc.

Leaving wife out of work is reserved for the upper class nowadays, even not all of them. Definitely not for the bus drivers.

It used to be that quite normal across all classes for one parent to go out to work and one to look after the family. One wonders what the point is in increasing economic growth if it's to make us less well off than we used to be.

Post reply on HN