I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#91

Post by PeterisP » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:37 PM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #36

RodericDay wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

Thank you for enduring the indignant replies! Yes, this place is dominated by strata of society driven to justify organized child labor, even after seeing the face of one such 9 year old. Throughout history, such people justified all sorts of things. I know many like them in person, and am constantly weirded out. (One reason I dislike hanging out with programmers, managers and investors.) The banally evil things stum…

It's not justifying the horrible situation - it's pointing out a fact that the obvious naive solution (prohibition) would bring more harm than good to those poor people.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#92

Post by sorenbs » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:40 PM UTC

As someone who is currently establishing a software development office in Bangladesh for a western company this is my perspective on child labor

Child labor is a long term problem for any country as it keeps kids out of school and locks them in low wage jobs for the rest of their live, meaning less tax revenue for the country. Educating the young generation is an investment in the future that brings more sophisticated work and higher wage jobs. Very Simple.

In Bangladesh underemployment among healthy adults is so widespread that child labor can only be ascribed to bad governance. Clearly the government, if it cared about future growth and wealth in the country, should create a scheme allowing children to learn and healthy adults to work.

Simply banning child labor is not enough as this story so clearly explains. The family needs the money, and doesn't have idle healthy adults who could could replace meem's income. Some fairly sophisticated scheme is required for this to work. Call it wealth distribution, social security or whatever.

Currently the government is not able to provide such a scheme and as a result the country will develop much slower than it could otherwise.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#93

Post by PeterisP » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:40 PM UTC

lemmsjid wrote: post #60

tptacek wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be taking his point too literally. Another way to look at it is, if the owners of factories in Bangladesh were maximally generous and civic-minded, how much could they improve the lives of garment workers? Is the answer "not very much"?

Just taking the details from the original article, the answer is probably 'quite a bit', and probably without a massive economic impact: * Windows * Air conditioning * Chairs (!!) * Fewer hours and more breaks * Disability and health benefits That's a baseline of civilized-ness. In fact, the act of purchasing the labor to install those things would also stimulate the economy. The real answer to why the above don't ex…

Your examples such as

* Fewer hours and more breaks

* Disability and health benefits

are definitely major issues with a massive economic impact. Unless 'fewer hours' is forced on all your competitors as well by effective labor legislation, anyone offering hour less for the same pay would quickly go out of business while the exploiters would grow - the effect of anything an employer can decide wouldn't cause any change to 'marginal cost of goods' - the price would stay the same as determined by the majority of competitors, and only loss would be to that owner.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#94

Post by PeterisP » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:49 PM UTC

alive-or-not wrote: post #58

jvm wrote: post #35

Sometimes I think westerners just can't wrap their heads around just how poor Bangladesh is. Their GDP per capita: $2000, adjusted for living costs (PPP). Please, everyone, try to wrap your head around that number. That means a totally equal distribution of resources would give everyone $2000 a year. GDP counts all money spent on everything, so factory safety compliance costs would come out of that $2000. Consider Me…

Measuring economic potential in PPP is like measuring software functionality in lines of code. The basic question is does a country produce enough food to feed itself. If that's the case it can grow an industry slowly with respect to human lives, etc. If not IMHO there are still better solutions than building sweatshops.

Most countries don't wish to grow an industry "slowly with respect to human lives" even if they have enough food to feed themselves.

As it shows in practice all over the world, if people are given the chance to go from subsistence agriculture to sweatshops, they do so eagerly, intentionally migrating a thousand miles away from their families if needed so. You'd need to apply a lot of force and bloodshed to move them back away from those jobs to the farming; and when given a fair vote, those workers press for many things but not on slowing down industry growth, rather the opposite.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#95

Post by moo » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:51 PM UTC

Remember, 5 months ago over 1,100 people confirmed dead when a garment factory collapsed in Savar district of Dhaka, Bangladesh with over 3,000 people inside. People's survival rights should not have to wait on an economic miracle, new elections, Western people's blessings, Adam Smith's invisible hand, God, or reincarnation. Waiting for such a crisis where things go beyond the pale to punish a couple of corrupt owners is not enough. When Third World people have enough and demand change we should not sit idle and support the Western countries who then start pumping in money for weapons to suppress the people on pretext that it is economic aid or to fight terrorism. The West cannot stay so rich and have conditions improve for the World's toiling poor. Freedom to get rich and monopolize resources is not freedom or fairness for everyone.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#96

Post by javajosh » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:54 PM UTC

I've emailed the author asking how I can pay Meem to go to school. I think I can outbid the sweatshop. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#97

Post by PeterisP » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:55 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #45

thecodeore wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All companies, in every nation, pay the minimum they can get away with. In nations with no social structure, very little wealth, and no jobs the choice is not government hand out vs minimum wage, but a very low paying job or starvation. It would appear you would rather these children starve then to allow them to work for enough money to feed themsleves, possibly working up and out of poverty over generations. America…

You seem to be okay with children being crushed to death or burning up in fires from substandard building construction. Construction that is known to be unsafe. It's accepted because it is convenient , not because it's necessary. These factories aren't turning out bare essential materials that are sold for small profit margins. They create luxury items that often have the markings of vapid pop culture and are sold wi…

A simple question - would ms. Meem from the article be happy if you went there and got the owner to fire her and other kids mentioned? That would be a small step towards eliminating child labor there, would you be proud and count it as a small victory?

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#98

Post by PeterisP » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:59 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #64

thecodeore wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All companies, in every nation, pay the minimum they can get away with. In nations with no social structure, very little wealth, and no jobs the choice is not government hand out vs minimum wage, but a very low paying job or starvation. It would appear you would rather these children starve then to allow them to work for enough money to feed themsleves, possibly working up and out of poverty over generations. America…

The thing about sweatshops is that they could make the same clothes, retailing in the West at the same prices, if they hired adults on a 45 hour weeks with genuinely optional overtime and didn't treat their staff abusively. There would actually be higher employment rather than lower employment in the local economy as a result. In many cases the only people that lose out would be middlemen that earn very well by devel…

Your hypothesis in the first sentence is testable - would a Bangladeshi factory owner who chose to do as you say be more competitive than others, getting higher productivity while being able to sell for the same prices? Are the most successful manufacturers there doing it right now, and if not, why not?

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#99

Post by thecodeore » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:02 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #45

thecodeore wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All companies, in every nation, pay the minimum they can get away with. In nations with no social structure, very little wealth, and no jobs the choice is not government hand out vs minimum wage, but a very low paying job or starvation. It would appear you would rather these children starve then to allow them to work for enough money to feed themsleves, possibly working up and out of poverty over generations. America…

You seem to be okay with children being crushed to death or burning up in fires from substandard building construction. Construction that is known to be unsafe. It's accepted because it is convenient , not because it's necessary. These factories aren't turning out bare essential materials that are sold for small profit margins. They create luxury items that often have the markings of vapid pop culture and are sold wi…

  libertarians justify slavery or indentured servitude

libertarians first and foremost believe in non-aggression, voluntary trade. so slavery, in so far as it was forced upon someone via violence or the threat of violence would not be justified.

  If you are coming from the point of view that there is no problem with sweatshops and things don't need to change

None of the video's I linked to, nor it is my position that things do not need to change, your emotional response is the problem, you lack the ability to react with logic, to understand how the world actually works, instead you lash out with emotion about how the world "should" work in your opinion

  How long have China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Malaysia had sweatshops?

They are in reality, why do you think in recent year companies have been flocking back to the US, telecom and tech industries are the most widely known, but many business are coming back. It is the increased in wages in those nations brought about by economic development via sweatshops coupled with the reducing wages in the US brought about by the failed economic policies of the US government

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#100

Post by danielrhodes » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:07 PM UTC

sorenbs wrote: post #92

As someone who is currently establishing a software development office in Bangladesh for a western company this is my perspective on child labor Child labor is a long term problem for any country as it keeps kids out of school and locks them in low wage jobs for the rest of their live, meaning less tax revenue for the country. Educating the young generation is an investment in the future that brings more sophisticate…

At some point, if the economy continues to grow, poor working conditions and child labor will start catch up with the country and they will be forced to curb them in order to get to the next level of growth. Hopefully corruption will not get in the way of that (something China seems to be dealing with now).