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Because it needs to be said

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Re: Because it needs to be said

#451

Post by general_failure »

gregd wrote: post #383
pearjuice wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what women need to start doing is carrying guns? If a man starts touching you without your consent you shoot them, simple, right? At any point she could have screamed, said "No" or simply stand up. Being tipsy doesn't paralyze your muscles. You can still speak and resist. If was she actively resisting anyone would have gotten between her and him much earlier and the police report would be in her favor immediately.…

pearjuice, you continue to take your arguments to ridiculous conclusions in order to justify what happened to Justine. Just fucking stop. We aren't talking about brushing up against someone at the bar. Her fucking boss took the body shot as an invitation to sexually assault her. What's so fucking difficult to understand about that?

Maybe you can try to understand pearjuice's comments and fucking think for a while.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#452

Post by arrrg »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #372

I feel bad for Joe. What he did was not malicious. He is not an abuser or predator. He did a dumb thing. This story isn't about a rapist or someone who preys on women. It's about a drunk man who thought he was going to score. A man who was becoming increasingly physical with a woman who he was attracted to, and who invited him to do a body shot after he had grabbed her ass. For those who don't know what body shots ar…

Holy shit. This is the top post? This? This victim blaming bullshit? (Just because you say it’s not victim blaming doesn’t make it not victim blaming.)

Consent to one thing (whatever that may be) does not imply consent to another thing. If you fail to make sure consent exists you always run the risk of doing something non-consensual. If that’s a risk you want to take, well, then do it. If you believe in your infallible abilities to read body language go for it. But don’t complain when others call you out for sexual assault or rape. (This doesn’t even begin to address the power imbalance of the relationship.)

You should re-think the tons of empathy you seem to have for this guy, based on some imaginary life-destroying effects of this blogpost, all the while you seem to have exactly zero empathy for her.

Think about that.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#453

Post by chris_wot »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #450
gregd wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. lawnchair_larry says, "So this man, a drunk, sexual being, who was not holding someone against their will or being violent, kept testing his boundaries and not receiving any indication that he had crossed a line." The mere fact that Justine was a subordinate was already a line Joe crossed. I would also argue that this subordinate relationship was akin to "holding someone against their will".

I can't wait to see you guys give that lecture to Sergey Brin. This stuff happens. Personally I'm going to call Sergey and Amanda "Probably not a great idea", rather than your implied suggestion of "Sergey is guilty of sexual assault and is holding her against her will". But we can agree to disagree.

Yeah, because that little love triangle wasn't a complete and total disaster.

By the by, I don't recall that Brin shoved his hand down her pants at a conference and penetrated her with his fingers in a drunken stupor.

Perhaps you didn't read that bit about removing the power imbalance first? The issue is that while you give us an example it's really an outlier, and not the same at all.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#454

Post by volvelle »

Why has she not reported this to the police? Why did HR not do it also? Sexual assault is defined in law, and many people are (rightly) convicted and imprisoned over these serious offences every year. Justine is not averse to talking about the issue with strangers over the Internet; why is the law any different?

In order to secure an arrest, the police need to be satisfied a crime has occurred (multiple witnesses are usually a good way to ascertain, for which there are at least two). For a conviction, a jury needs to be satisfied. The best way to do this? With evidence and witnesses.

Even with two witnesses to this case who have come out publicly, no doubt the bartenders can be found too (location, time, staff time sheets). It's highly likely there is CCTV footage too, particularly on the bar itself.

Is this genuine? I say that because I was not there, did not witness it, and do not know any of the people involved; including their judgement under drugs (alcohol) and their truthfulness. If this is genuine, why not use the full force of the law to bring a criminal to justice?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#455

Post by general_failure »

gregd wrote: post #367
pearjuice wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If being drunk is not an excuse why did she throw all of her responsibilities out of the window and decided to climb on that bar, lift her shirt in front of colleagues and other professionals in her field? >I want everyone to think I’m cool and relaxed so I try and just play by their rules. followed by "Regardless" says a lot about her sense of responsibility and ability to see what exactly she was doing, implying an…

Jesus christ. Lying down on bar - doing body shot != permission to sexually assault.

I disagree. I have never heard the term body shot before but from all wikipedia tells me, I would conside it acceptable for a man to grab a womaons ass if the woman was in a body shot. If the woman screams no that's a different this g but it didnt happen here.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#456

Post by chris_wot »

DanBC wrote: post #446
Confusion wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My intention was society-blaming, not victim-blaming. See elsewhere in this thread for my response to that point. Bringing up that men can also be raped and will feel 'the exact same way' is a good point, but I believe a red herring. A central point of my argument is that all people do not feel 'the same way'. It's exactly the fact that some people feel differently that makes clear that the consequences for Justine's…

People react differently to difficult events. Some children who are abused recover quickly. Others are messed up for many many years. We agree so far. But so what? Are you suggesting that she is wrong to feel so distraught? Or that society is doing something to encourage her to feel this distraught? Because from I read I see a lot of society blaming her for what happened and telling her to get over it.

But so what? Are you suggesting that she is wrong to feel so distraught? Or that society is doing something to encourage her to feel this distraught?

Because from I read I see a lot of society blaming her for what happened and telling her to get over it.

I agree. I can't believe some of the comments. The top rated post at the moment is from someone who feels sympathy with the abuser and who believes it was the fault of the victim. Who then edited his comment to say that her DUI charges were unforgivable, as if this somehow caused her to be assaulted.

Other commentators are basically saying similar things - she fell apart, what's with that, why can't she jut get over it? Another comment says that the language she used about her assault is ambiguous and can't have been all that bad. Yet others are implying or stating baldly that she did consent to being groped in public by her boss! Frankly, it sickens me to read the comments these fools are making.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#457

Post by general_failure »

Confusion wrote: post #235
abrimo wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trying to blame the victim, which is troublingly common when someone has been raped or sexually harassed but it is never the right response. It is traumatising when these things happen, it is personally demeaning and it is never acceptable. Justine is brave for coming forward and we should encourage everyone in a similar situation to do the same and support them when they do. The deeper cultural problem here i…

I don't see how you can interpret my post as blaming the victim. I'm blaming society for the extreme damage the crime has done to her and I propose ways to mitigate some of the damage. I'm not addressing the perpetrator at all, because he's obviously guilty of a crime. That doesn't change anything about the fact that we can mitigate the results of the crime.

Its easy to interpret it that way when do not read the comment.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#458

Post by fingerfood »

chris_wot wrote: post #443
fingerfood wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You exaggerated with 1. 2 was explicitly stated. For 3, fingering does not imply penetration. What was that again about reading comprehension? Are you implying that I blamed the victim? What was that again about reading comprehension?

He stuck his hand down the front of her pants and started fingering her. That is penetration. I don't see how you could interpret it differently. He didn't exaggerate about him forcibly sticking his tongue down her throat. That's what she wrote. You clearly do have a reading comprehension problem!

He didn't exaggerate? You and he must have awfully long tongues! Believe me, I've tried.

Fingering may or may not involve penetration. I can't make it any clearer without being explicit.

Or, maybe I have a reading comprehension problem.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#459

Post by jacobtracey »

arrrg wrote: post #452
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #372

I feel bad for Joe. What he did was not malicious. He is not an abuser or predator. He did a dumb thing. This story isn't about a rapist or someone who preys on women. It's about a drunk man who thought he was going to score. A man who was becoming increasingly physical with a woman who he was attracted to, and who invited him to do a body shot after he had grabbed her ass. For those who don't know what body shots ar…

Holy shit. This is the top post? This? This victim blaming bullshit? (Just because you say it’s not victim blaming doesn’t make it not victim blaming.) Consent to one thing (whatever that may be) does not imply consent to another thing. If you fail to make sure consent exists you always run the risk of doing something non-consensual. If that’s a risk you want to take, well, then do it. If you believe in your infallib…

It's possible to sympathise with both of their mixed up lives.

Do you always ask your partner if you can kiss or have sex with them?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#460

Post by chris_wot »

kristofferR wrote: post #414
ryanbrunner wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could maybe accept this argument if he tried to advance things, and stopped when it was clear she wasn't reciprocating. There's a sexual element to a body shot, and there's really no use denying that fact. But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate, and certainly when someone tells you to stop, you've clearly crossed a line. In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point sh…

Her post is light on details, so it's hard to decipher how Joe perceived the situation. > But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate... It's likely that he didn't notice her not reciprocating the kiss. He might also have though she was just a bit shy or simply a bad kisser. > In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point she said "stop". Agreed, no doubt about it. However, t…

Aside from the fact he was married, drunk and her boss...

The problem with not getting explicit consent is that the other party may not be comfortable with your advances. If you misinterpret the signals, well, I'm sorry - that's your issue, not the other parties. If you mix up the signals as you haven't communicated sufficiently with the other party, then I'm afraid you are still responsible for your actions.

Personally, I've never been bold enough to be so forthright to a woman. Now I'm married, I'm glad I never was! This sort of situation seems to me to be an absolute minefield and you are highly at risk of getting it wrong!

I honestly feel no sympathy for this Joe fellow. He should never have placed himself in this situation, and he should never have attempted the things he did until he had the chance to properly know whether he got consent or not. You are NOT going to find that out clearly at a rowdy bar surrounded by colleagues and party-goers.

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