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Because it needs to be said

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Re: Because it needs to be said

#421

Post by wilkie »

fingerfood wrote: post #419
gregd wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll oblige you with a response. This wasn't just "any contact". Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat? Did you read where he groped her ass? Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger? Quit trying to frame this as just "any contact" because it wasn't.

> Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat? No. > Did you read where he groped her ass? Yes. > Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger? No. Quit trying to sensationalize the story.

Those all existed in her account.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#422

Post by enko »

lnanek2 wrote: post #410

Pretty amazing boyfriend. She got upset at him touching her, so he slept on the couch with his ankles belted together so he wouldn't get back in bed out of sleepiness/habit. Wow.

Yeah, "amazing" is not really the word I was thinking of. There's a lot that is strange about this story, and that detail about the boyfriend tying his legs together with a belt is just the icing on the cake.

That is bizarre, almost disturbing behaviour. I am not going to comment on the case at all but for me several details from this article cast a very strange light on the whole scene, and that one just takes the cake.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#423

Post by theorique »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #246
cynicalkane wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why many reasonable people simply do not like to talk about sexual assault, on here or in real life. It seems to cause people to default to a position where you must adopt one view (i.e. theirs) to the exclusion of all others. If you talk about the effects societal norms have on victims, or on strategies to navigate a misogynistic world, people will accuse you of "victim blaming". On the other hand there are…

The two of you are doing two things at the same time. First, you're having an intellectually legitimate debate that's probably revealing some good counter points and offering valid, alternative perspectives on the broader issue. Second, you're continuing a cold argument devoid of any (productive) empathy in lieu of passionate, scientific rigor. This is not what this post needs. Let it go, guys. Neither of you is goin…

* This is a situation that calls for empathy and support, and the interchange of ideas that won't put other people off of listening to each other in an open way.*

... and HN is the place for that to happen! ;)

Re: Because it needs to be said

#424

Post by pearjuice »

chris_wot wrote: post #413
pearjuice wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing as you are an expert on the matter: whenever I am presented in such a situation; at which point do I ask the woman for consent? Is it when she jumps on the bar and lifts her shirt or when I lick her belly button (which was why she jumped on the bar)? Before I wrap my hands around her of after I kiss her forehead?

If you are her boss, you don't do those things at all.

If you are an employee, you don't do those things near your boss.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#425

Post by mst »

swombat wrote: post #400
mst wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words to the effect of "she was asking for it" are uncivilised and to my mind an uncivil response is at that point not just acceptable but important. I had two points there - the first was that pearjuice was plain wrong. The second was that pearjuice's attitude does not belong in civilised society and that anybody holding such an attitude should be defenestrated with extreme prejudice. I respect your opinion that my…

I don't think anyone is suggesting that she was asking for it. However, from the report it is ambiguous whether she clearly stated "no" at any point (reminding him he's married may have been a clear no statement, but we don't know for sure). Unfortunately this ambiguity is giving rise to the arguments above. I am civilised. I think that your attitude (suggesting that someone whose opinion differs from yours should be…

The sort of victim blaming attitude shown by their comments helps to perpetuate social constructs that enable a substantial amount of physical harm.

Additionally, "they hadn't said no" is not a justification for putting your hand inside somebody's trousers.

Trying to paint an obvious failure of basic consent as ambiguous is, to my mind, at the very least "maybe she was asking for it", which I find no less unpleasant.

As such, I think perhaps our definitions of "civilised" differ.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#426

Post by gregd »

enko wrote: post #422
lnanek2 wrote: post #410

Pretty amazing boyfriend. She got upset at him touching her, so he slept on the couch with his ankles belted together so he wouldn't get back in bed out of sleepiness/habit. Wow.

Yeah, "amazing" is not really the word I was thinking of. There's a lot that is strange about this story, and that detail about the boyfriend tying his legs together with a belt is just the icing on the cake. That is bizarre, almost disturbing behaviour. I am not going to comment on the case at all but for me several details from this article cast a very strange light on the whole scene, and that one just takes the c…

Have you ever lived with, much less been in love with a victim of sexual assault? This is hardly bizarre, almost disturbing behavior, given the circumstances. I can imagine Justine lashing out at her boyfriend because she may not have properly addressed what happened to her.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#427

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #416
gregd wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pearjuice, you continue to take your arguments to ridiculous conclusions in order to justify what happened to Justine. Just fucking stop. We aren't talking about brushing up against someone at the bar. Her fucking boss took the body shot as an invitation to sexually assault her. What's so fucking difficult to understand about that?

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Because it needs to be said

#428

Post by girvo »

steveklabnik wrote: post #161
Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

I can appreciate your sentiment, and we absolutely do not want to encourage the 'fragile women' meme. It certainly plays a role. However, it's only one component, and I think you may be putting a bit too much weight on it. A loss of bodily autonomy is psychologically harmful, regardless of societal expectations.

Amen. It's something most of us here (to generalise) as straight middle class males will likely never experience. I struggled with how to help when my ex-girlfriend was assaulted. I still am unsure on the "right" thing to do, other than support and empathise.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#429

Post by taytus »

steveklabnik wrote: post #153
pearjuice wrote: post #137

So she voluntarily lied down on a bar with her and men around her intoxicated by alcohol, hormones amplified and expecting nothing out of the usual to happen? Get real, please. Of course it is horrible but don't make it look like it was unexpected.

I don't know about you, but I do not want to live in a society where women cannot go to a bar without an expectation of being sexually assaulted. Sounds like a bug.

And body shots? really?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#430

Post by gregd »

fingerfood wrote: post #419
gregd wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll oblige you with a response. This wasn't just "any contact". Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat? Did you read where he groped her ass? Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger? Quit trying to frame this as just "any contact" because it wasn't.

> Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat? No. > Did you read where he groped her ass? Yes. > Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger? No. Quit trying to sensationalize the story.

So on top of a lack of reading comprehension, we have people blaming the victim? Is it any wonder women find it hard to exist in the tech world?
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