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Because it needs to be said

blogjustine.wordpress.com

371–380 of 635 posts

Re: Because it needs to be said

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy. >Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol ) Reading further: "An erogeno…

Your definitions are tangential to the argument. A body shot is risque, but they are not an open invitation to groping and fingering. Your point amounts to "her skirt was too short." Before you cry out straw-man, don't. Nowhere on wikipedia does it say body shots guarantee consent to groping and fingering. The fact it occurred on her navel doesn't mean 'yes'. By all accounts she was at least tipsy, if not outright dr…

So what women need to start doing is carrying guns? If a man starts touching you without your consent you shoot them, simple, right?

At any point she could have screamed, said "No" or simply stand up. Being tipsy doesn't paralyze your muscles. You can still speak and resist. If was she actively resisting anyone would have gotten between her and him much earlier and the police report would be in her favor immediately.

It is not until she feels penetrating contact, she begs him to think about his wife. In no instance before that (ass grabbing, facial kissing, tongue-to-tongue contact) she even pointed out possible resistance. How is it not her responsibility to not climb on that bar when her boss is around? To not lift her shirt in front of her boss?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#372
I feel bad for Joe.

What he did was not malicious. He is not an abuser or predator. He did a dumb thing.

This story isn't about a rapist or someone who preys on women. It's about a drunk man who thought he was going to score. A man who was becoming increasingly physical with a woman who he was attracted to, and who invited him to do a body shot after he had grabbed her ass. For those who don't know what body shots are, that's when a girl lays down on the bar, lifts her shirt, and holds a lime in her mouth. The bartender pours tequila in her navel, and another party drinks it from her stomach, and then, using his mouth takes the lime she is holding in her mouth, which amounts to a kiss. It's unquestionably sexual. Here is a picture: http://pubcrawlba.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/body-s...

"Body shots" are not a normal thing Americans do at conferences. I say that not to judge, but to provide context. I've been to a lot of industry parties, with a lot of alcohol, and a lot of very drunk (or high) "party animals", and haven't seen this done. I think most people would associate it with those "Girls Gone Wild" ads that used to run. For the record, it's not normal or appropriate to exchange backrubs and forehead kisses with male coworkers either. I'm a bit shocked that she said such behavior with her coworkers was common. The reason this matters is that this is certain to confuse people about their relationship with you.

So this man, a drunk, sexual being, who was not holding someone against their will or being violent, kept testing his boundaries and not receiving any indication that he had crossed a line. In fact, it's perfectly reasonable to interpret that after sexually touching her, and she invited him to lick her body and take a lime from her lips, that she was very much into this. In fact, a reasonable person could make this interpretation while completely sober. Then, she never says she doesn't want the behavior, but instead she says he has a wife and kids. "Well, if that's the only thing stopping us, I have great news...I have permission from my wife!" he says.

This isn't placing blame. Don't reply telling me about victim blaming. It's a bad miscommunication. He needed to be less drunk, she needed to be more clear. Both of them made very poor decisions. The fact that she did body shots for complicated reasons while masking discomfort to fit in is not his problem. She wanted to look like she was into it, as she said, and she was successful in giving him this impression. He has no way of knowing this, and no way of knowing that the party girl laying on the bar secretly doesn't want him to partake. Regardless, this is stupid, juvenile behavior on his part, which he would not have done sober. He likely knows this and is deeply ashamed.

I know many commenters here are probably less experienced when it comes to "hooking up" casually. To you, this all sounds straightforward. The vast majority of the sexually active population does not work in this straightforward way that you think - male and female. No man has ever touched the rear of any female by first asking bluntly, "Is it alright if I touch your butt?". No woman has ever told a man, "I would now like you to touch my butt." Yet, there is a non-negligible part of the population who likes to touch and be touched, and it isn't assault.

What happened here was all kinds of inappropriate, but it wasn't malicious. It's extremely inappropriate to vilify this man given the nature of the offense. And it's certainly not his fault that she became an alcoholic and got a DUI. That sounds like a cop-out to me. He's now been publicly named and shamed, which will be permanently on the internet and searchable for the rest of his life, because one night he had drunk wandering hands on a female who he thought was inviting the attention.

Edit: Whoa, wait just a minute here. We glossed over something fairly significant.

"In recent months this year I’ve been arrested, charged with a DUI, involved in second intervention classes..."

She got a DUI.

She just threw that in there, non-chalantly.

She operated a vehicle while intoxicated. Most who get a DUI don't get caught their first time, so she may have even developed a habit of it. Still, with the benefit of the doubt, even doing this once is very serious. There is a high risk that you can maim or kill innocent people while driving drunk.

Why is this not a huge controversy, and why is anyone forgiving her? Because we all make mistakes, she was drunk, she's taken steps to get help with her problem, and so on?

But here we are going to crucify someone who got too drunk and put his hands down her pants.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't want to get pulled into an argument on this because I've said what I mean to say, but your second sentence is really bold.

There is a lot of conflicting research on this, but many reports show that false rape accusations are no more common than false accusations of any other kind of crime. It's a very difficult topic to study.

There are many reports showing that false rape accusations to the police are no more common than false accusations of any other kind of crime. She didn't go to the police. There could be a vast number of accusations of rape like hers that are, in fact, totally made up and they wouldn't count as accusations for the purposes of those reports.

Which still wouldn't be worth worrying about, especially compared to all the actual rape that is happening, except there's a lot of pressure from certain groups to shun any man who's accused of rape regardless of the merits of the accusation. There's a very vocal school of thought that says if you employ or are friends with one of those men you're a rape apologist.

Though in this case it does sound very much like she was raped and can prove it.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's keep some perspective. A second ship in one week carrying desperate, impoverished African migrants sunk of the coast of Italy yesterday. Many drowned. That is a tragedy. This is just one of those bad things that happens in life that one has to move on from. While I agree in helping others, people need to help themselves. Everything you wrote about the community needs to be done by the individual, too. Also, one…

Let's keep some perspective. A second ship in one week carrying desperate, impoverished African migrants sunk of the coast of Italy yesterday. Many drowned. That is a tragedy. You wrote this under a throwaway account, so I think you understand my point before I make it, but I'll say it anyway. A situation like this doesn't call for debates or intellectual analysis. Winning debate points when the subject is sexual ass…

> A situation like this doesn't call for debates or intellectual analysis.

I would wholeheartedly agree with you, except that with the way attention is focused on the web and on the news in general I feel like there is no other time this topic is debated except after such personal tragedy. So when is the time for intellectual analysis?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#375
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>walls of text everywhere trying to examine the situation and blame those involved You guys have to deal with it that she voluntarily lied down on a bar, induced by alcohol with other men around her and OFFERED her body to be licked. In which universe did she saw an expected outcome of not being approached with a sexual tone? They were drinking the entire night and all those geeky guys normally filled with anxiety co…

pearjuice, after reading your other comments in this thread and the justifications you're using for the sexual assault that occurred, I would be seriously concerned with those around you, should you ever partake in drinking with them. You mention "why" a lot in some of your posts. "Why did she not get off that bar?", "Why did she even get on that bar?". Let us be clear about one thing. Justine suffered a sexual assau…

So any contact by a man on woman which has not explicitly said "Yes, I am okay with this" is sexual assault? Rape? Shouldn't the victim have responsibilities? Know what is at stake?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#376

This article confuses me. 1. Why do work collegues party with each other? Isn't work for work and non-work for non-work? Why mix the two? That's asking for shit, throwing professionality out the window. At my recent places of employ I have religously avoided any private contact with my collegues. This gives me an air of professionality and a sense of trust = "Icecreampain will treat me fairly because he is not best f…

> That's asking for shit, throwing professionality out the window.

Professionals can enjoy a party and not have shit happen.

> This gives me an air of professionality

Do you understand the distinction of having an air of professionalism and actually being professional?

And that's fine. If you can't handle a party without asking for shit, it's good that you know the limits of yourself and your coworkers. However, don't presume that others lack these same abilities.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#377
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sexually assaulting people The problem is that what is considered "sexually assaulting people" is relative to one's culture, education, religion, etc. In ancient China just the bare foot of a girl was the most intimate thing you could imagine, something a husband will never get from his wife. In Tang dynasty apparently showing breasts was considered normal. Right now in France saying "my dear" (ma chérie) when addr…

> The problem is that what is considered "sexually assaulting people" is relative to one's culture, education, religion, etc. This is why we have laws. And the assault didn't happen 'worldwide,' it happened in the USA. So the definition is not really ambiguous.

But laws, while necessary, are very inefficient at avoiding bad behaviors. If I don't steal my neighbors or assault girls, it is not chiefly because it is forbidden by laws, it is because I would feel ashamed of myself.

Edit: what I mean is that using the self esteem, sense of honor, education, all these old things might prove more efficient than laws, and maybe especially in problems related to disrespect of women.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#378
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy. >Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol ) Reading further: "An erogeno…

She agreed to the body shot and nothing else. There's no consent for other things. Body shot is not a 'gateway drug' to sexual assaults.

Consent is almost always just implied, not explicit.

I'm in no way defending him or his actions, but it's understandable how an intoxicated guy (therefore less able to read subtle body language signals) could think an act of foreplay like licking alcohol from her body was a way of consenting to further sexual advances.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#379
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that what is considered "sexually assaulting people" is relative to one's culture, education, religion, etc. This is why we have laws. And the assault didn't happen 'worldwide,' it happened in the USA. So the definition is not really ambiguous.

But laws, while necessary, are very inefficient at avoiding bad behaviors. If I don't steal my neighbors or assault girls, it is not chiefly because it is forbidden by laws, it is because I would feel ashamed of myself. Edit: what I mean is that using the self esteem, sense of honor, education, all these old things might prove more efficient than laws, and maybe especially in problems related to disrespect of women.

Agreed, I only mean that 'yeah but how do you define sexual assault?' has a clear answer.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#380
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming the blog post is the same story she would have given to police, this certainly wouldn't have made for a criminal case even if she had filed a report. He penetrated her. It sure as hell IS sexual assault!

How many times have you penetrated someone without explicitly asking for consent? Many, many times, I'm willing to bet (assuming that you're male).

I'll just leave this here

http://consentsus.org/groan-zone

which is an accessible little zine looking at consent as a complicated and beautiful process, considerably more complicated than just "no means no" /or/ "yes means yes". It is negotiated on on an unequal playing field within already existing power structures, relies on verbal and nonverbal communication, can shift over the course of an evening or a relationship, etc etc

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