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What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

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Re: What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

#71
post #16

The author seems to revolve his article around MS software running manufacturing, ambulances, etc. This is only true in the most literal sense possible. The software that runs these industries just happens to be written upon an MS platform due to a number of unfortunate market incidences that forced other OS players out of the game for less than technical reasons. This trend is now rapidly reversing and new software…

First, nobody at Microsoft posted an article. I answered a question on Quora, before the Yale incident even occurred. Quora reached out and asked if they could publish on Forbes, which I said was fine. I updated to add the Yale example, which has already been discussed on HN, so I don't rehash, but please note nobody has ever suggested Yale lied. I've suggested they did not great science, which is very much not the s…

> "have been producing some incredibly popular software"

Whoa, Koolaid much?

I'll stop you right there.

You can call your employer's contraptions "ubiquitous". Popular they are not.

Re: What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asking for a magic privilege. I'm asking people to step back and evaluate what Microsoft is actually doing. Take Bing, for example; you strip the brand off and people actually prefer our results. Take an honest look at the products we produce and still don't choose to use them? Totally fine. But it is important that people do take that step back - we can't let tech be ruled by branding only.

I personally don't like the haters.. and of all tech companies, Sony is probably the only one I won't use because of politics against their brand/management decisions. They've done some cool things, and BluRay was a better format than HD-DVD, but the market was leaning towards HD-DVD when backroom deals killed that. (not to mention rootkits, etc) Many people feel the same about MS. What I find issue with is that peop…

"What I find issue with is that people will completely dislike a solution for the brand alone. I've seen this for years when I've suggested/supported Mono in Linux."

To be fair, Mono never delivered on its promises. There must be tonnes of .Net applications that Linux users would have been thrilled to get on their platform. Yet the only ones I have seen running on Mono were the ones that were specifically targeting Mono, not ones that were running on windows and just happened to find their way to Linux.

So, either most .Net applications are crap that no one really cares about or they were tied to the windows platform. Of course, it could just be blind, unmotivated hatred, but that's not how I've perceived it.

Re: What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly what I was thinking. It might just be me tired and not thinking clearly, but where do we draw the line? Tire manufactures for the ambulance? Tools manufactures that built the hospital? Other than this, everything else made sense. Microsoft does play an important part.

I actually don't think we should draw the line: it takes many, many people working together to create the world we live in. My point was that we should operate on a basic level of respect for those people, rather than simply taking pot shots at them based on branding.

My fault. It was a rhetorical question. I completely agree. Respect all involved.

Re: What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, nobody at Microsoft posted an article. I answered a question on Quora, before the Yale incident even occurred. Quora reached out and asked if they could publish on Forbes, which I said was fine. I updated to add the Yale example, which has already been discussed on HN, so I don't rehash, but please note nobody has ever suggested Yale lied. I've suggested they did not great science, which is very much not the s…

Ok, while I might agree that surely Microsoft has been beneficial to someone over the years other than Microsoft, and while I might also say that I preferred various versions of Windows to Mac or forms of Linux up until some years ago and I have quite a bit of experience with Microsoft technologies that I don't regret that much, when you say something like this 'Nobody is going "damn, that cotton gin forced out all t…

Sorry, perhaps I made the point badly: you're nodding at exactly what I was trying to say. The reason to get angry about the things people produce is for their actual social ramifications (like slavery), not for the fact that they moved technology forward in a way that discontinued the use of another technology.

Hence, it makes perfect sense to take pot shots at Microsoft if you think we actually and materially harmed society in the way that slavery did. But, and I could be wrong, it feels like most people are not critiquing not for actual damage but because in rising to popularity, other technologies did not.

Thanks for clarifying; I'm just a damn scientist, so things that are clear in my head don't always come out fully on screen. Truly appreciated.

Re: What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

#75
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, nobody at Microsoft posted an article. I answered a question on Quora, before the Yale incident even occurred. Quora reached out and asked if they could publish on Forbes, which I said was fine. I updated to add the Yale example, which has already been discussed on HN, so I don't rehash, but please note nobody has ever suggested Yale lied. I've suggested they did not great science, which is very much not the s…

Again, Microsoft never brought any advances to those industries. They provided a platform (closely identical to those offered by numerous alternatives) on which the real software that made these advancements was hosted on. Your argument is the same as saying that Ford is responsible for nuclear power because their trucks deliver the fuel to the plants. If there was no Ford, then Toyota trucks could deliver the same f…

I honestly don't know how to reply to that kind of argument, in that it feels like the evidence both overwhelming and widely available that Microsoft has, in fact, provided innovation. Look at the sheer number of patents the company holds; we can debate patent law until the end of days, but in the meantime, it is worth looking at the things that Microsoft brought to market. And then look at Microsoft Research, which produces literally thousands of peer-reviewed academic papers every year, dealing with numerous advancements in technology.

Ford is an interesting example. Arguably, without Ford's advancements in manufacturing, automation, and mass industrialization, we don't get the modern car, which unquestionably has made nuclear power possible. In a very Civilization way, you can't get to nuclear power without modern transportation.

So what you seem to be suggesting is a counterfactual world where some other software (let's say Apples, for argument's sake) rose to prominence instead of Microsoft. It is possible that they might also have done an amazing job of putting a PC on every desk. But we have no way of knowing that and what we do know, in the reality in which we currently live, that Microsoft did an excellent job of pushing computing out of the lab and into the home.

And there seems to me to be decent evidence that we'll continue to make those sort of innovations that push technology forward. While you're welcome to call me "silly", I think saying that Microsoft has introduced absolutely no advancements to the marketplace is silly. So maybe we simply can't come to a place of agreement because we're not working from the same set of facts?

Re: What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

#76
post #19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like a 90s BASF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NQuMr45xd4 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJHPpsb3FzM We don't make the MBA/OSX/Chrome you use to write this comment - we make the chair you sit on possible.

Remember what it was like back in the 80s before there were chairs?

There is a difference between saying "chairs wouldn't exist without Microsoft" and "Microsoft had a hand in making possible the chair you currently sit in". To be clear, I'm making the second argument - that there is a disproportionate amount of vitriol directed at Microsoft (and even in this thread) given the role that it has played in enabling human advancement.

Microsoft: making chairs cheaper for 30 years. =]

Re: What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

#77
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember what it was like back in the 80s before there were chairs?

There is a difference between saying "chairs wouldn't exist without Microsoft" and "Microsoft had a hand in making possible the chair you currently sit in". To be clear, I'm making the second argument - that there is a disproportionate amount of vitriol directed at Microsoft (and even in this thread) given the role that it has played in enabling human advancement. Microsoft: making chairs cheaper for 30 years. =]

Were chair prices spiraling out of control before DOS was released? Something like 40% of office furniture is made by american prisoners, and I have a feeling they're not using Windows while making it. Paying workers <$0.15 an hour is what is making chairs cheaper.

Re: What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

#78
Ok, many people here said it, but still.

"Asked to name the most innovative tech company, they’ll say Apple or Google. And they’ll do it with a straight face, while sitting in a chair made by Microsoft. Wait, Microsoft makes chairs? No, not directly. But the part of that chair? Manufactured in facilities running on, you guess it, Microsoft software."

Let's look at this statement. "sitting in a chair made by Microsoft". It's pretty clear what "made by Microsoft" should mean, shouldn't it? What do you think when I say "a smartphone made by nokia"? You surely think that the smartphone was manufactured in a facility that may or may not used some software from nokia, right?

So my issue with that article is very misleading language. Can I call it newspeak?

So "made by microsoft" means neither made by microsoft nor does it mean made with sotware made by microsoft. It means it was made in a facility that may or may not uses an operating system made by microsoft. Who actually made the chair is an ingenieur using software not made by microsoft but that for reasons decided to target the microsoft operating system.

And these reasons are not something anyone at microsoft should be proud about. They worked really hard at disabling their competition with unethical methods. It's not exactly secret, anyone can read about their history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107...

"Transported in trucks built by Microsoft software, on roads built by Microsoft software,"

Microsoft produces software for building trucks and roads?

"Trained at a school running Microsoft,"

Said as if it wasn't a bad thing microsoft is pushing educational institutions to use proprietary software.

"If you prefer not getting hit by a bus, think about the role that Microsoft has had in making sure your baby was born healthy."

Ok, do people really think that it's not a bad thing that (according to the article) the whole manufacturing chain is dependent on proprietary software made by one vendor? Is it not bad that fucking hospitals and their instruments "run on" proprietary closed source microsoft software? Again, this was achieved by becoming a (quasi-) monopolist by methods described in the links above.

"we’re only able to do so because of generations of Microsoft leadership in technology."

What gets me is the casual tone that (as I read it) sounds like microsoft had "generations of leadership in technology" on their own merits instead of because they disabled their competition by their business behavior.

"I run our Bing for Schools program. It gets hardware in the hands of kids, teaches them digital literacy skills, and creates a safe environment for them to practice in. And when we launched, the haters emerged from the woodwork with pitchforks and torches, growling “Google! Google!” Just for fun, see the comment stream on The Verge story: Microsoft offers classrooms free Surface RT tablets with ad-free Bing for Schools"

Again, as others have said. It's cool that children are introduced to technology. It's bad that it's proprietary technology. Especially at educational institutions. When I advocate that they get android tablets instead it's not because it's from google but because it is (mostly) free and open source. Meego/Sailfish OS/Firefox OS would be fine too. But getting taught proprietary microsoft software, possibly with their first contact to this technology? No.

"But think about the number of young people who make a face when you say Microsoft. That’s an entirely different problem."

Why is that a problem? Sounds totally healthy to me.

"Because even if you know that you are working on something that will help save lives"

Actually you don't do that. You are working on something that others will build something for that will save lives. And because you work for someone who has become a quasi monopolist with unethical behavior those others will have to give a lot of money to your employer even though without you we may or may not had a world running on free and open software by now.

"or make things better for humanity"

Again, look at the list of lawsuits microsoft was in and lost. And that's only the stuff that is actually illegal, there is a lot you can do that is not illegal but still unethical. There's everything from their faked "get the facts" studies to the plan to pressure hardware manufacturers to cripple absolute basic standard functionality just to make their competitors look worse http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/...

"I’ve pushed through a program that does good things for kids."

You mean the program that is designed to make children already dependent on microsoft software? It's called vendor lock-in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in#Microsoft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Vendor_l...

Tl dr; I personally don't see how anyone that thinks stuff like "know that you are working on something that will help save lives or make things better for humanity,", i.e. who has a heart and a conscience can work for Microsoft. I'm sure the working conditions aren't as bad as some people say and the products aren't as bad as people say either. For example the metro interface: I don't really see why microsoft thought it was a good idea, but I could certainly work with it with no problems if I wanted to. It'd be only a little bit annoying but as someone who has no problems with fluxbox/openbox, xfce4, gnome2, gnome3, kde4 etc. it'd be no big deal.

The thing is that it's not just microsoft, they "support" a whole industry intentionally or coincidentally designed to lock you in: Adobe Flash DRM, while atrocious, did work on linux. But it wasn't "good enough" or something. The media industry had to choose microsoft technology with silverlight. Result: netflix, lovefilm, ... only (officially) work on either microsoft windows or apple's mac os, both commercial proprietary operating systems.

Re: What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

#79

I run our Bing for Schools program. It gets hardware in the hands of kids, teaches them digital literacy skills, and creates a safe environment for them to practice in Yeah, all altruistic no doubt.

Let's take altruism as "devotion to the welfare of others". It is pretty hard to argue that Bing for Schools is anything but that - we looked at what we could create that would be good for kids and then we fought our way uphill to be able to offer it. Does it gain us market share? Hopefully yes. But that doesn't make it not altruistic. We could do what Google is doing and advertise to kids. We are choosing not to do…

When you do something to gain market share then it's not altruistic.

Re: What is the worst thing about working at Microsoft?

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't like the haters.. and of all tech companies, Sony is probably the only one I won't use because of politics against their brand/management decisions. They've done some cool things, and BluRay was a better format than HD-DVD, but the market was leaning towards HD-DVD when backroom deals killed that. (not to mention rootkits, etc) Many people feel the same about MS. What I find issue with is that peop…

"What I find issue with is that people will completely dislike a solution for the brand alone. I've seen this for years when I've suggested/supported Mono in Linux." To be fair, Mono never delivered on its promises. There must be tonnes of .Net applications that Linux users would have been thrilled to get on their platform. Yet the only ones I have seen running on Mono were the ones that were specifically targeting M…

IMHO Mono offers nicer constructs for a higher level runtime that can utilize lower level system libraries with less friction. Compared to Java+JNI, C# is a dream.

Most of the applications that don't work tend to either utilize windows specific features, or use components that do likewise. With XAML, the fate is somewhat sealed in terms of cross-platform applications.

ASP.Net apps tend to run with little/minor modification, however are usually written towards MS-SQL server, so they are tethered there. You're right that most cross-platform Mono apps are written as such.

Personally, I don't care if a Mono app doesn't run in Windows, or ties to libraries that aren't or are difficult to bundle for windows. I still really like C# as a language, and prefer Mono to a lot of alternative higher level systems.

That said, if Node gets some good UI integration for Gnome, all bets are off imho. I really love node.js + npm, and if I can write desktop UI with it, that will be what I use for just about everything. (There are a few libraries/bindings, but most are incomplete, and some are tethered to a browser-based UI, which I don't mind too much, but are forks from node proper)

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