Because it needs to be said • Hacker News Board

Re: Because it needs to be said

#181

Post by wilkie » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:24 AM UTC

BenderV wrote: post #154

This is sad. I don't want to be the devil advocate but I don't think we can judge here...So I will imagine the defense of Joe ; I understand that Justine doesn't want to enter in details. But without all informations, it does seem to me that Joe could have just misunderstood Justine behavior. "- Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I c…

Not a very substantial defense. You've quoted 1 of 3 accounts suggesting a crime, and there aren't any accounts of a defense. The only defense so far is a bunch of rather ridiculous hearsay by a bunch of internet people who weren't there.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#182

Post by sneak » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:26 AM UTC

throwaway86 wrote: post #175

wilkie wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you think that statement is bold says a lot about how far we are from solving it and helping people.

Rape creates victims. False accusations create victims. Before you say "not the same!" they both often end in suicide. So, knowing that and knowing how difficult of a topic false accusations are to study and how little we know about the bad side of human beings, I would hope that anybody who is reasonable would read "rape is a bigger deal than false accusations of rape" and say whoa, nelly, partner, do you know somet…

It's a bigger deal because of frequency. There are orders of magnitude more rapes than rape accusations, even including legitimate ones.

Rape is endemic in our society.

If you are comparing them 1:1, we can have a discussion, but I am speaking in aggregate.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#183

Post by BenderV » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:27 AM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #164

BenderV wrote: post #154

This is sad. I don't want to be the devil advocate but I don't think we can judge here...So I will imagine the defense of Joe ; I understand that Justine doesn't want to enter in details. But without all informations, it does seem to me that Joe could have just misunderstood Justine behavior. "- Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I c…

> without all informations Which more information would you need? There are two other people that corroborate her story, and Joe says he's not saying anything.

The defense of Joe ? The fact that he is not saying anything on the Internet is not a proof of anything...

And again, I don't say that her story is false. Just that it could have been viewed in an another way from Joe pov.

People seem eager to judge other people. Especially on the internet...

Re: Because it needs to be said

#184

Post by throwaway9848 » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:27 AM UTC

sgentle wrote: post #42

I'm glad this is out there. It's a tragedy that it happened at all, but it would be an even bigger tragedy if nobody else knew the consequences. I think everyone experiences that moment sometimes where you think "is this okay? should I say something?" And after you waver for a second, your decision reinforces itself and you end up doing nothing at all. Maybe you can even convince yourself that it was all okay in the…

Let's keep some perspective. A second ship in one week carrying desperate, impoverished African migrants sunk of the coast of Italy yesterday. Many drowned. That is a tragedy.

This is just one of those bad things that happens in life that one has to move on from. While I agree in helping others, people need to help themselves. Everything you wrote about the community needs to be done by the individual, too. Also, one must not let their life go entirely off the rails in the face of an adverse event.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#185

Post by adamnemecek » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:28 AM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #165

adamnemecek wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My snarkiness is in fact constructive. It points out that whatever saying "trigger warnings" is supposed to achieve, it fails at doing that and turns away potential readers.

Can you explain how it fails at achieving its goals? What do you think the goal of a trigger warning is?

It's supposed to warn readers who have had similar experience that the content of the article could cause flashbacks of their own experiences.

And I somehow can't shake off the feeling that all it does is promote the victim mentality in the the author and the audience.

Also good job white knighting your pants off in this thread.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#186

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:29 AM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

This comes dangerously close to victim-blaming.

Let me tell you that what Justine is feeling is absolutely not some social construct built exclusively on archaic misogyny. I have known more than one gay man who was raped and felt exactly the same way.

You might consider that at least some of the women who appear to deal better with being assaulted are actually just putting on a brave front to avoid being pitied and condescended to.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#187

Post by copx » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:30 AM UTC

Reading the comments here makes me think I am in bizarro world. Is expecting women to say "No!" already too much personal responsibility for them these days?

Calling this "sexual assault" is just crazy. There was no force, she never told him to stop. This would be thrown out in court without question in any half-way sane country.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#188

Post by throwaway9848 » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:30 AM UTC

sneak wrote: post #160

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

No, that is not a deeper problem. It may be a problem, but it is minor compared to the fact that there are vast numbers of people who think that sexually assaulting people is okay. Different brains respond to severe emotional trauma in different ways. I urge you to spend some time with smart people with PTSD. Collect some data and evolve your beliefs.

Calling complete bullshit on you for "vast numbers of people who thing sexually assaulting people is okay". Either your definition of sexual assault is much different that standard usage, or you hang out with deplorable people.

Edit: What did you hope to accomplish in your response?

Edit 2: Also, perhaps instead you could educate us what it is we could learn by hanging out with smart people with PTSD. Since not all of us have the opportunity to meet people in that situation, maybe you could share a bit about the experience and what you learned.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#189

Post by sneak » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:32 AM UTC

chris_wot wrote: post #170

I have a few things to say. This is, frankly, appalling! Justice should never have been asked to do "body shots", and her boss should have been charged with a criminal offense. The second thing I'd like to say is an anecdote from some time ago when I went to VMWare's vSohere conference in Sydney. I drink alcohol, but only ever in moderation ad I never get drunk. The reason for this is that in my teenage years I got d…

> VMware has a responsibilty to ensure that conference attendees don't get drunk on the conference floor.

I don't like drunks or being drunk, but you totally lost me here. You're just making stuff up.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#190

Post by BenderV » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:32 AM UTC

wilkie wrote: post #181

BenderV wrote: post #154

This is sad. I don't want to be the devil advocate but I don't think we can judge here...So I will imagine the defense of Joe ; I understand that Justine doesn't want to enter in details. But without all informations, it does seem to me that Joe could have just misunderstood Justine behavior. "- Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I c…

Not a very substantial defense. You've quoted 1 of 3 accounts suggesting a crime, and there aren't any accounts of a defense. The only defense so far is a bunch of rather ridiculous hearsay by a bunch of internet people who weren't there.

Well, I'm not an advocate :P

I am more in the mitigating circumstances than in a total defense.

"The only defense so far is a bunch of rather ridiculous hearsay by a bunch of internet people who weren't there." That the whole goal of this post. How can you judge without a defense ?