Because it needs to be said • Hacker News Board

Re: Because it needs to be said

#161

Post by steveklabnik » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:11 AM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

I can appreciate your sentiment, and we absolutely do not want to encourage the 'fragile women' meme. It certainly plays a role. However, it's only one component, and I think you may be putting a bit too much weight on it. A loss of bodily autonomy is psychologically harmful, regardless of societal expectations.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#162

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:12 AM UTC

conformal wrote: post #143

hawkharris wrote: post #25

My ex-girlfriend wrote a blog post similar to this one, accusing me of sexual assault. I volunteered to take a police polygraph test, hired a lawyer and initiated a libel suit. Fortunately, I didn’t need to go further because she suddenly changed my name & her story. But the experience was still stressful and scary. Many commenters vilified me because they assumed her information was true. Prior to being falsely accu…

posting your personal account of someone's crimes against you in a blog is not a fair or reasonable way to deal with what is clearly a very serious matter. it sounds like what happened was awful and these types of incidents are common in many predominantly male professions, e.g. law, finance. i was recently seriously harassed and more-or-less sexually assaulted by an acquaintance's wife at a wedding in a swimming poo…

[deleted]

Re: Because it needs to be said

#163

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:12 AM UTC

conformal wrote: post #143

hawkharris wrote: post #25

My ex-girlfriend wrote a blog post similar to this one, accusing me of sexual assault. I volunteered to take a police polygraph test, hired a lawyer and initiated a libel suit. Fortunately, I didn’t need to go further because she suddenly changed my name & her story. But the experience was still stressful and scary. Many commenters vilified me because they assumed her information was true. Prior to being falsely accu…

posting your personal account of someone's crimes against you in a blog is not a fair or reasonable way to deal with what is clearly a very serious matter. it sounds like what happened was awful and these types of incidents are common in many predominantly male professions, e.g. law, finance. i was recently seriously harassed and more-or-less sexually assaulted by an acquaintance's wife at a wedding in a swimming poo…

[deleted]

Re: Because it needs to be said

#164

Post by steveklabnik » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:13 AM UTC

BenderV wrote: post #154

This is sad. I don't want to be the devil advocate but I don't think we can judge here...So I will imagine the defense of Joe ; I understand that Justine doesn't want to enter in details. But without all informations, it does seem to me that Joe could have just misunderstood Justine behavior. "- Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I c…

> without all informations

Which more information would you need? There are two other people that corroborate her story, and Joe says he's not saying anything.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#165

Post by steveklabnik » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:14 AM UTC

adamnemecek wrote: post #158

sneak wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike the idea that anyone is obligated to provide trigger warnings, too, but the post has important data in it. Also, don't be so snarky for the sake of being snarky. Productive snark is okay.

My snarkiness is in fact constructive. It points out that whatever saying "trigger warnings" is supposed to achieve, it fails at doing that and turns away potential readers.

Can you explain how it fails at achieving its goals? What do you think the goal of a trigger warning is?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#166

Post by chroma » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:14 AM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

This is a difficult point to make. I'm surprised you didn't use a throwaway account.

I've been assaulted by peers. I've had drugs slipped into my drink. One time, someone put a gun to my head and robbed me.

After these experiences, I had nightmares, phobias, and insecurities. But surprisingly quickly, I recovered. Without social expectations of permanent trauma, the mind seems to be quite resilient. Thank you for making this point so much more eloquently than I could have.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#167

Post by eulerphi » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:15 AM UTC

GeorgeOrr wrote: post #82

konstruktor wrote: post #31

We have a culture of alcohol being involved in most team interactions outside of work. Those mostly take place in the evening, a time when, usually, private socializing, including mate seeking behaviour, happens. That alone would be quite a fertile ground for sexual harassment, if you add a few females to a group mostly consisting of men. Then add companies where people work long hours and have little life outside of…

I really don't think it's about alcohol or about men and women working in close quarters for long hours. This is about a small number of pigs that care more about their desire than any thought of consent or mutual interest. Real men, the vast majority, would never consider inflicting this sort of evil on another. Drunk or not. It's not about sex, it's about power and abuse.

The white knight.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#168

Post by downandout » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:15 AM UTC

Her boss should not have even attempted to have a fling with her - that exposes the company to liability, and he was rightly fired. It's pretty obvious that she didn't feel that this was enough punishment for his behavior, and has now publicly named him in an attempt to extract her idea of justice out of the situation. It would be interesting to see if he responds with any kind of legal action, as I imagine that he has a side to the story as well. From her own description of the incident, she was voluntarily allowing intimate conduct until she told him to stop, at which point he did. Assuming the blog post is the same story she would have given to police, this certainly wouldn't have made for a criminal case even if she had filed a report.

She certainly has a right to feel violated, and to publish an accurate description of what happened if she so chooses. I just have a feeling that the guy involved is going to take some form of legal action and that he may indeed have a case for libel - however unfair that may be in the eyes of herself or others. It's just a bad situation all around, which is why bosses should avoid such encounters with their employees at all costs.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#169

Post by icecreampain » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:16 AM UTC

This article confuses me.

1. Why do work collegues party with each other? Isn't work for work and non-work for non-work? Why mix the two? That's asking for shit, throwing professionality out the window. At my recent places of employ I have religously avoided any private contact with my collegues.

This gives me an air of professionality and a sense of trust = "Icecreampain will treat me fairly because he is not best friends with the boss or married to the CEO".

2. Body shots, in my world, are reserved to college students who are going to party and fuck all night, and ... yeah, that's about it. I can't see 40 och 60 year olds doing body shots because it's the in thing to do at a bar.

3. Writing about such an experience, a drunken stupor at a bar, and accusing people of this and that smacks of, as others have said, the behaviour that that false Adria Richards character displayed at Pycon. She accused people of sexism while previously having written sexist and racist articles herself, then trying to get social media on her side by photographing a couple of real developers - just to get herself a few more minutes of fame.

I can't condone exposing other people's privacy like this and, thanks to people like the hypocrite Adria Richards, I'm always suspect of any cries of "assault" or "rape". Too many people have cried wolf for me to automatically believe one person's account of a situation. And the witnesses? I'm suspectful of their allegiances: see point 1.

If a crime was committed it's up to the courts system to decide, not her or her blog followers. Even if the courts dismiss the case, at least her police report will contribute to statistics.

So why not report it to the police (preferrably the day after)?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#170

Post by chris_wot » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:16 AM UTC

I have a few things to say. This is, frankly, appalling! Justice should never have been asked to do "body shots", and her boss should have been charged with a criminal offense.

The second thing I'd like to say is an anecdote from some time ago when I went to VMWare's vSohere conference in Sydney. I drink alcohol, but only ever in moderation ad I never get drunk. The reason for this is that in my teenage years I got drunk once - once! - and soe terrible things happened. I swore never to get drunk again.

So at the end of the first conference night, when the Hoodoo Gurus were playing, I was discussing business and shooting he breeze with clients and VMware partners, with a lass of champagne in one hand. Silly me, but I didn't pay much attention to th servers, who kept topping up my champagne glass.

I went home drunk, without even being aware of it. I had a hang over the next day. I don't feel it was my fault in the case. VMware has a responsibilty to ensure that conference attendees don't get drunk on the conference floor.

Frankly, conferences and alcohol don't mix. It should be stopped fully if conference organisers can't serve alcohol responsibly.