Because it needs to be said • Hacker News Board

Re: Because it needs to be said

#121

Post by Kequc » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:46 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #88

erikpukinskis wrote: post #15

One thing we can all do: Start asking before you touch in situations where you know you don't have to. I know it's awkward. But the reason people like Joe think they can put their hands down someone's pants is because we don't have a cultural practice of "ask first". They see you put your arms around that friend of yours who doesn't mind at all, and they think "Ah, cool... so you can just sense if she's cool with it…

[deleted]

There seems to be this growing idea that isn't helpful to the women's movement, or if not then to feminism. Being propagated in stories like this, which is that women are for some reason less capable of dealing with situations as they are occurring.

As men we are expected that if a situation is going somewhere we don't like, to assert that we don't like it. Why isn't the same true for women? "I draw the line at the shot being done by my direct superior, it would be unprofessional." or "Don't touch me anymore please." It isn't even like this was tried, she supposedly assumed that was impossible.

Then laments afterwards for months? I mean... it's asking for babysitting. Everyone else is to change their behaviour so that there isn't the possibility of mentally scarring someone who doesn't assert themselves.

Then for people to claim that police or authority figures don't take sexual assault seriously when every time one of these stories comes up it always ends in the guy being dealt with swiftly and without mercy. Always. In this case he lost his job and apparently that's not even enough. I can only assume the author wants him on a sex offenders registry.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#122

Post by sliverstorm » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:46 AM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #112

sliverstorm wrote: post #105

I am fairly certain that the events that Monday in January ruined me for the rest of my life Is this typical? I've read a fair amount of stories from rape victims, and yet here we are to understand this woman's life has come completely unhinged and ruined for good by something... I don't know, somewhat less dramatic than a rape. If I hadn't read the story of the event itself, I'd have honestly thought it was about a…

Yes. The relevant concept, as much as I _hate_ to link to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma As well as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_trauma_syndrome

To be clear, I understand & am familiar with those concepts. I'm just... I don't want to put it in terms of comparison, but that's all I've got- shocked & confused that an event that I would expect to be less traumatic than rape, is seeming to impact the victim in ways much more dramatic than any recounting from a rape victim I can remember.

Again, I hate to put it in terms of comparison. There's no competition here. I'm just trying to adjust my understanding to fit.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#123

Post by justin66 » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:47 AM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #117

justin66 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I applaud the author for sharing her experiences. This post is eloquent and courageous. Having said that, a blog post is not the right place to seek justice. In fact, the information here may interfere with a trial. I encourage her to delete this post and initiate a criminal trial in order to hold the perpetrator accountable. It's pretty clear to me that the author is not interested in seeking justice and is more i…

> It's pretty clear to me that the author is not interested in seeking justice and is more interested in letting people know what the heck happened to her. For those playing along at home, Justine raised this issue almost two weeks ago, but the deluge of people saying "I need more details before I believe you" forced her to actually post this. She didn't even want to be this explicit about it, but the community made…

Thanks. That's sad.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#124

Post by kenster07 » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:49 AM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #107

kenster07 wrote: post #95

The story is heart wrenching, but the fact is, it may not be true. Anyone can literally say anything they want about someone and the internet will believe it without a moment's hesitation. It is downright scary. If you were the accused and the story was contrived, you would not have much recourse.

There are two men, one of whom stopped it, who corroborate her story: http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events and http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer

I appreciate that, and if the story is true, I hope the perpetrator suffers the consequences.

But we are not the jury here, as fun as it may be. We should not try to ruin someone's life in such a fickle forum.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#125

Post by exodust » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:49 AM UTC

Dalkore wrote: post #55

Please read "After the shot" again. If im not mistaken kissing forheads and rubbing is commen place with your male friends. You mention multiple coworkers. He hand grabs your butt and you dont immediatly pull away????? Why not take responsibility for your actions as well. Ive been to bars and seen drunken mistakes but to vilify the person like this and not take any resposibilty for your actions is pathetic and immatu…

Exactly.

She had opportunity to stop things before it progressed to "down the front of the pants."

Do people not understand what's involved in putting a hand down a girl's front? It's actually not that easy to do... it can't be done "casually" in a public bar without both parties allowing it to happen.

Not to mention "forcibly kissing me with his tongue"... How is that even possible unless the other person opens their mouth and lets your tongue in?

If a girl doesn't want your tongue in her mouth at a public bar, guess what? Your tongue is not going in her mouth! That's how kissing works in case any readers here are rusty on the subject! :-)

Go ahead, downvote. But please don't kid yourself that this girl isn't playing the "victim of alcohol-fueled tech industry sleaze" game.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#126

Post by gingerlime » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:49 AM UTC

pm wrote: post #60

cegev wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comments are... odd. I can understand leaving comments open as an illustration of the backlash that results from trying to talk about these matters, but at some point, banning particular people makes sense: the majority of the comments there are vile primarily because the majority of comments have been made by one apparently obsessed person making utterly ridiculous comments in a deranged tone. I fear that the sh…

"Erin" sounds like "she" has an axe to grind with Justine.

Erin == Joe O'Brien ? (rien/erin...?)

Re: Because it needs to be said

#127

Post by aninhumer » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:49 AM UTC

cefarix wrote: post #49

As an aside, why is alcohol such a big part of things like tech meetups, etc? I've been to a few and there is always alcohol being served and people drinking it. As a Muslim, I've never touched alcohol and never will, and I don't understand the need to "alcoholize" everything. Why can't there be a culture of having just good clean fun, no alcohol, no drugs, no sexualizing? And what place does alcohol even have at tec…

In moderation, alcohol allows people to loosen up and enjoy themselves more in social situations. Since one of the primary purposes of conferences is networking, and thus socialising, a lot of people enjoy drinking at them. The problem here is the culture of drinking to excess, not the availability of alcohol alone.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#128

Post by throwaway86 » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:51 AM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #90

steveklabnik wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain to me how posting a factual account of a situation is 'vigilante justice'?

The post accuses someone by name with some fairly emotive acts. Enough to have repurcussions on the other person's life. That seems like an attempt at amateur justice to me. In my country, the post would be grounds for libel if she can't prove it in court.

Imagine if the United States adopted the legal structure around the reporting of accusations in Britain. Nancy Grace would be out of a job overnight, and perhaps we'd see more successful libel verdicts.

To explain: the media cannot report on an accusation until the accused is convicted, as I understand it, though I'm not British and not familiar with the very probable nuances that exist.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#129

Post by sneak » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:52 AM UTC

throwaway86 wrote: post #93

hawkharris wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. I didn't mean to imply that citizens can initiate it on their own, but the author should at least try to press charges. The definition of sexual assault / rape varies by state. In any case, I don't think vigilante justice by blog post is an appropriate solution.

And yet frighteningly effective; here's an anecdote that includes a thought exercise to consider, and let me preface the thought exercise by making clear that I am not accusing anyone of lying in the situation linked here and intentionally have no opinion on it, for reasons that shall become clear. (In fact, I wish I hadn't read it.) Let's introduce Bob (not his real name). Bob is a mid-level engineering manager. Sin…

The fact that there are bad actors that game the system does not mean we should not publicize reports of bad behavior.

Rape is, at present, more of a problem to our society than false rape accusations.

Perhaps that will change in the future. I hope it does.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#130

Post by tunesmith » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 8:52 AM UTC

Completely beside the larger point of assault, I am just frankly amazed at the seemingly unanimous defense (in the three blog writeups) of the level of drinking that happens in these atmospheres. It really does read as if people are saying, look, people should be able to get shitfaced drunk every night at a professional conference without having to worry. And... well gosh maybe that's true in theory, but... isn't that an earthshakingly huge "but"?

my god. So. much. alcohol.

I am not blaming the events on the alcohol, because I get that the root cause of events like these are far deeper. But it sure does seem like the alcohol serves as something of a counterfactual; if the alcohol hadn't been flowing as freely, none of this might have happened. What on earth is the deal with the culture of these conferences? I'm a programmer, and I have friends, and I go out, and I'm not a prude, but I swear, I haven't gotten buzzed for six months and I rarely have more than one drink in an outing. With this kind of picture painted, I feel like I'd be a complete alien at a Ruby conference, and it feels like a disincentive to get more involved with that community.