How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap • Hacker News Board

Re: How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap

#21

Post by Tichy » Fri, Oct 11, 2013, 7:26 AM UTC

arthulia wrote: post #9

codexon wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed. It is much more plausible that these engineering colleges have laxer requirements for females in order to get a 50/50 gender balance rather than public school discrimination.

Citation needed. Anecdotal rebuttal: I know a bunch of female students at Harvey Mudd and that doesn't appear to be the case.

How would the students know that they had laxer requirements?

Re: How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap

#22

Post by silvertonia » Fri, Oct 11, 2013, 8:13 AM UTC

It seems a bit odd that they're quoting their Junior class makeup-- makes me think that's the best data point they have, and it exaggerates their success. My understanding is that CS enrollment by gender isn't the issue, it's CS graduation rate.

Re: How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap

#23

Post by teawithcarl » Fri, Oct 11, 2013, 8:28 AM UTC

Harvey Mudd's come a long way. In the 1970's, the few women (less than ten) were joking referred to as "non-males".

Re: How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap

#24

Post by anonymous » Fri, Oct 11, 2013, 8:45 AM UTC

You know, on reflection, this is actually a good thing. Not because of the diversity - screw diversity. Because you'll have more people with aptitude admitted. Programming aptitude is mostly evenly distributed regardless of gender and race, therefore if you keep your number admitted persons constant, but give a good incentive for every kind of person to apply, you'll end up with better applicants. Or to put it another way, the best 1000 white male americans are worse than the best 1000 americans in general. And at least in this case, I'd expect that there would be about as many capable females as males. Things might go skewed if we try to have the same number of heterosexuals and homosexuals or left-handed and right-handed people though.

Re: How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap

#25

Post by omonra » Fri, Oct 11, 2013, 9:26 AM UTC

Luit2 wrote: post #5

Here are Harvey Mudd's acceptance rates by gender: Men 14.4% Women 38% Source: http://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-545-harvey-mudd-c... I am perpetually bamboozled how anyone can think anecdotes like this matter. If Harvard wanted too I am sure they could make half their undergraduate population disabled black lesbians. That does not prove that your average state school is horrible and discriminatory just beca…

Great point.

So the next question is - for how many years will they admit less qualified women before the policy can be rescinded? Or will it stay in place as long as its required to have a 50-50 incoming class - which basically means quotas forever?

Re: How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap

#26

Post by cousin_it » Fri, Oct 11, 2013, 9:31 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #12

RyanZAG wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Close to triple through natural occurrence? Come now, you're the one being facile.

The point is the acceptance rate by itself is too murky a statistic to prove the gp's point.

Note that if acceptance rate is a murky statistic, then using underrepresentation to prove discrimination might be even murkier, because underrepresentation is a function of the acceptance rate and the number of applicants.

Re: How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap

#27

Post by 011011100 » Fri, Oct 11, 2013, 10:20 AM UTC

anonymous wrote: post #24

You know, on reflection, this is actually a good thing. Not because of the diversity - screw diversity. Because you'll have more people with aptitude admitted. Programming aptitude is mostly evenly distributed regardless of gender and race, therefore if you keep your number admitted persons constant, but give a good incentive for every kind of person to apply, you'll end up with better applicants. Or to put it anothe…

"Programming aptitude is mostly evenly distributed regardless of gender and race,"

Is it really?

Re: How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap

#28

Post by davorak » Fri, Oct 11, 2013, 10:45 AM UTC

Luit2 wrote: post #5

Here are Harvey Mudd's acceptance rates by gender: Men 14.4% Women 38% Source: http://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-545-harvey-mudd-c... I am perpetually bamboozled how anyone can think anecdotes like this matter. If Harvard wanted too I am sure they could make half their undergraduate population disabled black lesbians. That does not prove that your average state school is horrible and discriminatory just beca…

Those statistics are for the entire University. The statistic they gave was 48 percent female in the junior CS class. Most Universities seem to have problems with females transferring out in the first two years. So it does not seem the initial acceptance criterion should weigh agains the accomplishment.

Re: How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap

#29

Post by davorak » Fri, Oct 11, 2013, 10:50 AM UTC

silvertonia wrote: post #22

It seems a bit odd that they're quoting their Junior class makeup-- makes me think that's the best data point they have, and it exaggerates their success. My understanding is that CS enrollment by gender isn't the issue, it's CS graduation rate.

In my lay observations most universities have a problem with females transferring out in the first two years. So it can across as impressive to me that they had such an even split in the 3rd year of classes. The program has only been going on for 6 years so I would be surprised if all of the upper level curriculum has even been transferred over flexible homework/project structure described so their is probably still room for improvement by continuing to apply the same strategy to the high level classes.

Re: How Harvey Mudd Transformed Its CS Program And Nearly Closed Its Gender Gap

#30

Post by davorak » Fri, Oct 11, 2013, 10:54 AM UTC

011011100 wrote: post #27

anonymous wrote: post #24

You know, on reflection, this is actually a good thing. Not because of the diversity - screw diversity. Because you'll have more people with aptitude admitted. Programming aptitude is mostly evenly distributed regardless of gender and race, therefore if you keep your number admitted persons constant, but give a good incentive for every kind of person to apply, you'll end up with better applicants. Or to put it anothe…

"Programming aptitude is mostly evenly distributed regardless of gender and race," Is it really?

Is there solid evidence of an IQ difference between the genders or a general subject, with a biological understanding of why such a difference exists? I currently have not come across any such solid evidence and biological understanding.