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If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

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Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#151

Post by EpicEng »

jaggederest wrote: post #107
ww520 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which hip languages are these "thought leaders" using now?

Python, Ruby, Javascript, JVM-hosted languages like Clojure, Scala, and newer languages still in development like Elixir, I'm sure I'm missing some. Haskell is perpetually 10 years ahead in programming research but sadly it functionally lacks support for day-to-day scripting tasks.

Javascript? Really?

"Thought leaders" are hopefully just using the best language suited for the job. It often comes down to what kind of code you are writing and what it needs to run on.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#152

Post by pjmlp »

buster wrote: post #146
pjmlp wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's because Oracle has been suing them over it. ... Sun just did not sue them, because they lacked the money. James Gosling confirmed this. > And really, what Java 7 language level features were there that makes it problematic that Android still runs Java 6? The good stuff was dropped from 7 and pushed to 8. 7 is boring - Strings in switch - Try with resources - Multiple exceptions in catch - Simplified IO - Dia…

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/04/schwartz/

Two can play that game,

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57423754-94/java-creator-ja...

In his testimony last week, Schwartz explained his "grit our teeth" strategy after Android had its public debut as an incompatible variant of Sun's Java. "We saw a handset bypass our brand and licensing restrictions...we decided to grit our teeth and support it so anyone supporting it would see us as part of the value chain," he said. Apparently, continuing to seek a way to work with Google -- to turn lemons into lemonade, as Gosling wrote -- was preferable to engaging in a costly lawsuit.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#153

Post by haberman »

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #63
eropple wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automatic memory management (especially with a garbage collector) is antithetical to high performance. I like the JVM (for Scala, mostly; Java-the-language can go screw), but there is nothing there really remotely close to C++ and C, and the garbage collector is a very large part of why.. Rust might horn in on C++'s bailiwick, but until then, it's gonna be a while. I strongly disagree that Boost really adds "so much…

Automatic memory management (especially with a garbage collector) is antithetical to high performance. The LMAX Disruptor pattern would like to have a word with you. http://lmax-exchange.github.io/disruptor/ http://martinfowler.com/articles/lmax.html http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6559308/how-does-lmaxs-di... I'm not just namechecking the Disruptor pattern. I have extensive experience with it. It's about 10% slow…

> It's about 10% slower than what could be achieved with C

What does that even mean?

Are you saying that you have a proof of the theoretically fastest C program that would implement the same functionality and it's 10% slower than that? Does the C you're comparing it against use the Disruptor pattern too? Or is this just a comparison against a naive, single-threaded C program? How does that number vary with the overall heap size of the program?

Numbers like this get thrown around that strike me as incredibly dubious.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#154

Post by lmacsen »

taspeotis wrote: post #97
EpicEng wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popular in terms of use, yes, but liked? I don't know, I doubt it. Android and iOS essentially force you to use Java or Objective-C respectively. I don't hate Java, but I don't like it either. It lacks quality of life features that other, similar languages have had for years. I can't stand writing code in it if I don't have to (and don't get me started on Objective-C...) From what I hear from others and read on a wee…

> and don't get me started on Objective-C.. itsNotTheLanguagesFaultPerSe:butIfTheFunctions:andTheirParameters:werentNamedLikeThis:itWouldBeBearable

Named arguments are very descriptive and intuitive. And yes, Xcode auto-complete is awesome.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#155

Post by bradhe »

fleitz wrote: post #38
artsrc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C++ is a tool for language experts. If you can effectively apply that expertise it is extremely expressive and efficient. Java does have some unfortunate complexity, but I don't think it is in the same league. Java also includes a library that is more extensive in some areas than the vanilla standard C++ one. The JVM is also more robust to some types of programmer errors than any run time for C++ that I know of.

I'm not talking about how many features the language has, I'm talking about the endless amount of line noise that you need to accomplish simple tasks. Most of what the code does is hidden behind ceremony. Imagine Newtown writing out instructions on how to calculate gravity instead of just writing: F = G((m1 m2)/(r^2)) I really don't understand how a language that can't succinctly express calculus from 300 years ago w…

The "ceremony" you're talking about has nothing to do with the language itself and everything to do with the community. You can write Java and not use the factory pattern, you know.

Hell, Scala is one INSANELY complicated language. It's got about every feature under the sun. Java is simple and to the point...unless you really want to use spring or something of the sort.

Anyway, you've got a really contorted view of Java, and you are conflating some fundamental things.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#156

Post by NAFV_P »

ekimekim wrote: post #87
NAFV_P wrote: post #65

I thought C was dying out. I must be living in the dark ages.

I think C has kind of hit equalibrium, in that it's not often used for things outside its "niche", but with no other language threatening it within its niche.

Is forth considered to be in the same niche?

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#157

Post by Someone »

russellsprouts wrote: post #143
Theriac25 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't C# have "magic" getters and setters, where code like "foo.bar = quux;" might mean a function call? To me, that's not clearer at all.

Yes. However, C# uses the convention that capitalized "fields" are actually properties, and lowercase ones are true fields. For example, Foo.X might be an x position, returned from a getter method, and set with a setter method. Internally, the class make use the Foo.x field to store it, in which case the getter and setter are trivial. In fact, C# will write them for you The property could look like: int X{ get; set;…

"However, C# uses the convention that capitalized "fields" are actually properties, and lowercase ones are true fields."

If only. In http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/vstudio/ms229043%28v..., Microsoft advocates:

"The PascalCasing convention, used for all identifiers except parameter names, capitalizes the first character of each word"

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#158

Post by darklajid »

zmmmmm wrote: post #102
LukeShu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Mono exists, and contains a free implementation of C#.

True, but you can't spruik that and then tell us in the next breath about the wonderful developer tools and Intellisense, etc., because most of that doesn't exist outside Windows. With Java it's not just the JVM that is cross platform - the whole developer ecosystem and culture is from the ground up. Every IDE, every compiler, every tool, all runs on every platform. It has it's holes, but largely Java actually achiev…

MonoDevelop is far from bad, actually. And cross-platform.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#159

Post by jaggederest »

EpicEng wrote: post #151
jaggederest wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python, Ruby, Javascript, JVM-hosted languages like Clojure, Scala, and newer languages still in development like Elixir, I'm sure I'm missing some. Haskell is perpetually 10 years ahead in programming research but sadly it functionally lacks support for day-to-day scripting tasks.

Javascript? Really? "Thought leaders" are hopefully just using the best language suited for the job. It often comes down to what kind of code you are writing and what it needs to run on.

You're doubting that Javascript is a popular language for people pushing the forefront of software development? I'd cite for you a ton of the work being done on node, ember, knockout, backbone, jquery, even some embeddable hardware thing I read about on here the other day. There's a huge amount of energy in that area, lots of extremely smart people.

Or are you just being snobbish about javascript? It's a pretty solid language, and has interpreters installed on virtually every computer on earth with built-in distribution.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#160

Post by [deleted] »

taspeotis wrote: post #97
EpicEng wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popular in terms of use, yes, but liked? I don't know, I doubt it. Android and iOS essentially force you to use Java or Objective-C respectively. I don't hate Java, but I don't like it either. It lacks quality of life features that other, similar languages have had for years. I can't stand writing code in it if I don't have to (and don't get me started on Objective-C...) From what I hear from others and read on a wee…

> and don't get me started on Objective-C.. itsNotTheLanguagesFaultPerSe:butIfTheFunctions:andTheirParameters:werentNamedLikeThis:itWouldBeBearable

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