If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy • Hacker News Board

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#81

Post by EdwardDiego » Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 4:28 AM UTC

fleitz wrote: post #8

dmk23 wrote: post #3

Any talk of Java "dying" is just nonsensical Java hands down is the most obvious choice for any applications that require performance, yet are too complicated to write and support in C/C++/other lower level languages. Java JIT is very mature unlike JITs for most other languages, which largely remain at the level of experimental projects and fall short on key production requirements. Given that the entire Hadoop ecosy…

Yes, that's why kernels are written in java. If you're writing complex code java is rarely the answer as it requires so much complexity itself. Hint: Most java projects just appear to be complex because of the poor quality of the language (and developers). Java is hands down the choice for simple projects written by way too many poor quality developers. The JVM can barely manage 12 GB of memory, Java is a piece of cr…

> Java is a piece of crap when it comes to anything that's actually complex.

Define complex?

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#82

Post by acomjean » Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 4:29 AM UTC

jordanthoms wrote: post #39

dkuntz2 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly certain Java and C++ have comparable speeds, and I think in someways Java's faster.

Java runs about 2x slower than C++ for general CPU-bound stuff - (although it does use much more RAM). That sounds slow, but it's faster than most other languages out there. However, C++ does give you the ability to more easily use processor extensions (SSE, AVX, etc), which you can't use from Java AFAIK - which makes a big difference in performance for certain applications.

I think generally the libraries in Java help programmers use data structures that make the language seem faster (trees/hashes) . These structures exist in c++ but aren't as easy to use so aren't used as frequently. Those processors extensions will make mathy c++ code significantly faster. When I was on an ada project all the mathy code was written in c/c++ for speed. Pretty amazing the difference.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#83

Post by EdwardDiego » Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 4:30 AM UTC

fecak wrote: post #60

I've run the Java Users' Group in Philadelphia for almost 14 years, and I specialized in Java recruiting between 1999-2010. I know a lot of Java pros. Our meetings still get pretty strong attendance (80-120 per meeting), but I'm seeing far fewer new sign ups and the faces are much the same. There could be several reasons, but young engineers that I speak with rarely have any interest in Java work (though JVM is still…

Anecdotal, but I noticed a distinct drop-off in my local user groups, Java and .NET, when Stackoverflow started getting popular.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#84

Post by chatman » Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 4:31 AM UTC

With Hadoop, Lucene, Solr, etc. written in Java, there is no doubt that Java is here to stay. None of these libraries (or many others) have competing implementations written in other languages.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#85

Post by KevinEldon » Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 4:39 AM UTC

LukeShu wrote: post #79

jorgecastillo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I get no down votes from the following comment. This is not true, C# can be thought as superior to Java, only if you intend to be completely immersed in the Microsoft stack and this assertion is still debatable. I personally like Java more than C# just because Java is truly platform independent and fully open source. When you have two similar software products the one which is open source will always be a bett…

To be fair, Mono exists, and contains a free implementation of C#.

I have done less than 10 hours of .NET programming in my life so I have no idea here... but my impression is that MONO substantially less accepted than a standard Java port... not trying to bash, just explaining my view. I'm moving a significant production Java app from a Linux box to Windows in the next 3 months. My expected work is about 2-days, and frankly my management wouldn't expect more, and I'd have a hard time justifying more (it's probably padded already... don't tell). The portability of Java apps is wonderful. I'd guess MONO could do the same thing, Windows to Linux, but just explaining the run-time to my management or Change Management would require testing, which is cost, which is probably waste, but is also necessary... a Oracle JVM on Linux or Windows, doesn't require the same due diligence.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#86

Post by ekimekim » Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 4:40 AM UTC

nilved wrote: post #37

"Java is dying" is wishful thinking. It's not the case, but we can only hope it will be. Currently, it does a good job of marketing to developers too good for Ruby and Python and not good enough for C.

I understand the "not good enough for C" comment, but why "too good for Ruby and Python"?

Not trying to pick a fight, just would like you to elaborate.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#87

Post by ekimekim » Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 4:41 AM UTC

NAFV_P wrote: post #65

I thought C was dying out. I must be living in the dark ages.

I think C has kind of hit equalibrium, in that it's not often used for things outside its "niche", but with no other language threatening it within its niche.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#88

Post by cageface » Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 4:45 AM UTC

acomjean wrote: post #82

jordanthoms wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java runs about 2x slower than C++ for general CPU-bound stuff - (although it does use much more RAM). That sounds slow, but it's faster than most other languages out there. However, C++ does give you the ability to more easily use processor extensions (SSE, AVX, etc), which you can't use from Java AFAIK - which makes a big difference in performance for certain applications.

I think generally the libraries in Java help programmers use data structures that make the language seem faster (trees/hashes) . These structures exist in c++ but aren't as easy to use so aren't used as frequently. Those processors extensions will make mathy c++ code significantly faster. When I was on an ada project all the mathy code was written in c/c++ for speed. Pretty amazing the difference.

What? C++ comes with robust trees & hashes via the STL, along with a pretty extensive library of algorithms that work on all the STL containers. And, unlike Java, C++ lets you pack value objects contiguously in memory, which can be a massive performance win due to better cache behavior/no pointer chasing.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#89

Post by camus » Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 4:45 AM UTC

LukeShu wrote: post #79

jorgecastillo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I get no down votes from the following comment. This is not true, C# can be thought as superior to Java, only if you intend to be completely immersed in the Microsoft stack and this assertion is still debatable. I personally like Java more than C# just because Java is truly platform independent and fully open source. When you have two similar software products the one which is open source will always be a bett…

To be fair, Mono exists, and contains a free implementation of C#.

MSFT could shut down Mono anytime it wants.How many business use mono (to build web apps) in production?

Scala,Groovy,Xtend,etc... there is enough languages on the jvm one doesnt have to use any MS related tech.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#90

Post by EpicEng » Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 4:45 AM UTC

zainny wrote: post #43

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Android yet. When you add in the Android factor, Java is probably still one of the most widely used programming languages today. It's funny the article straight away brings up the verbosity argument as well. You want to talk about verbosity - take a look at Objective-C and Cocoa (again, hugely popular today!)! Personally, I quite like Java.

Popular in terms of use, yes, but liked? I don't know, I doubt it. Android and iOS essentially force you to use Java or Objective-C respectively. I don't hate Java, but I don't like it either. It lacks quality of life features that other, similar languages have had for years. I can't stand writing code in it if I don't have to (and don't get me started on Objective-C...)

From what I hear from others and read on a weekly basis, few people enjoy writing Java code. It may not be dying in terms of numbers, but given an option to use something else those numbers would likely drop very quickly.