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ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

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Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#81

Post by com2kid »

wpietri wrote: post #72
com2kid wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with ADHD have reduced brain growth in areas associated with executive control. ADHD is very real. So is the 50%+ of untreated people with ADHD having substance abuse problems. So is the higher suicide rate. So is the reduced rate of high school and college graduation. So are the dramatically increased rates of depression. Then there is the incredibly high rate of co-morbidity of ADHD with other psychological…

Those are interesting facts, but I don't think they prove anything about existence of ADHD as an actual disease. Lower-than-average height is also correlated with many diseases but it isn't a disease on its own.

The portion of the brain associated with self control is smaller in people with a mental disorder that is characterized by a lack of self control.

Now obviously proving the entire causation thing here is pretty hard, but, if someone is missing their eyes, and that person is blind, there might just be a causative relationship happening.

To put it in perspective (http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/549973), 32% of people with ADHD suffer from depression. 21% bipolar. That isn't some statistical oddity.

(The % is higher in the untreated population, no citation on hand right now sorry)

Over 50% of people with ADHD have substance abuse problems.

Imagine taking a population and saying "oh yeah half those people are alcoholics, but there is no strange underlying cause, nope, we should just let them be."[1]

ADHD isn't the popularized image of "little Johnny can't do his boring old homework that the mean teacher assigned", but rather "Jenny can't make herself go to sleep even though if she is late one more day for work she will be fired and have no money for food or rent."

ADHD is like having your entire sense of self control ripped away from you, no matter how much you want to do something, you cannot force yourself to do it. Pleading and begging doesn't work. Breaking down in tears over one's complete lack of ability to accomplish the simplest of tasks doesn't help any. The neurochemical responsible for self control quite literally isn't there.

[1] Well ignoring that America has basically done that for multiple cultures already...

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#82

Post by lfuller »

code_duck wrote: post #70
lfuller wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methamphetamine in fact IS prescribed by doctors to treat certain disorders. It's unfair to compare prescription methamphetamine to street meth since street meth is not only often very impure, but is typically taken in dosages 30x - 50x greater than a therapeutic dose. This logic could also be used to argue that acetaminophen / ibuprofen should be Schedule I narcotics since taking a dose 30x - 50x larger than the the…

Anyone who took a dosage 30-50 higher times the prescribed dosage of methamphetamine would quickly die. The impurities are irrelevant: the drug is toxic even at normal doses. I disagree with your comparison of acetaminophen and amphetamines. It seems to be based on your deluded idea about dosage, but other than that, the drugs differ in some rather significant ways such as abuse potential, habituation, psychoactivity…

A therapeutic dosage of methamphetamine (Desoxyn) is about 5mg - 15mg, whereas a recreational dosage can be as high as several hundred milligrams. Though certainly toxic at higher doses, research hasn't shown that the drug is toxic at therapeutic levels. Like the majority of drugs, doctors must balance its benefits with any potential side effects.

You can disagree with my comparison if you'd like, but the fact remains. Don't take my word for it - I encourage you to read some of the research out there surrounding therapeutic methamphetamine as well as the more common levo/detroamphetamine.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#83

Post by lutusp »

Marwy wrote: post #59
lutusp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Denying the existence of mental disorders is dangerous and harmful to those who indeed have these disorders. The people you're talking about aren't denying the existence of real disorders, they're denying the existence of phony disorders -- and there are plenty. Asperger's, popular a few years ago, is now recognized as a myth and has been removed from the DSM. Until the mid-'70s homosexuality was listed among the p…

>There is a core of very serious cases, like schizophrenia and some bipolar sufferers, but those are not mental illnesses, they are physical ailments with psychological symptoms. Purely mental illnesses have no scientific explanation, no reliable diagnostic criteria, and no treatments -- which is why the DSM is being abandoned. What about depression? OCD? Anxieties? Are they "physical ailments with psychological symp…

> What about depression? OCD? Anxieties? Are they "physical ailments with psychological symptoms"?

No one knows, and anyone who claims to know is speaking without any scientific backing. This will eventually change, primarily because of a move away from psychology toward neuroscience, but this is not going to happen quickly.

I will say this. Eventually "mental disorders" will all be either abandoned or turned into treatable biological disorders, diseases with know causes, just like medicine. But that's not around the corner -- it will take years or decades.

A neuroscience operation was recently performed on a woman who was so depressed that her life was essentially over -- she was institutionalized, unable to function at all. In the procedure, a location in the brain called "area 25" was stimulated using criteria that had worked with laboratory animals.

When the electric field was applied, the woman's depression lifted instantly -- instantly. The procedure is still experimental and is not safe for ordinary cases of depression, but it shows where we're headed:

"A depression switch?" : http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html...

It is examples like this that explain why I and many other people are advocating a move away from psychiatry and psychology -- the resources being expended on those activities are being wasted, and are taken away from things that might work.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#84

Post by code_duck »

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #78
code_duck wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am absolutely comparing dextroamphetamine to methamphetamine. It doesn't matter by whom it was synthesized. They are very similar in pharmacology, so you'd be deluded to not compare the two. Same addictive properties, same deleterious effects on health, similar abuse potential.

And yet, different contexts lead to vastly different results. One is prescribed under a doctor's guidance at therapeutic doses and administered orally; the other is smoked, at [i]significantly[/i] higher dosages, to speed up absorption with much higher concentration levels accumulating directly in the brain. In other words, your argument is inherently simplistic and purposely misleading. Despite similarities in struc…

The reason I appeal to sets of things is because I find it completely ridiculous that children are routinely prescribed this dangerous stimulant drug for what I consider very flimsy reasons.

Most people don't really realize what Adderall is, and American society as a whole seems to assume that doctors and pharmaceutical companies know what they are doing and are trustworthy, despite many indications to the contrary.

The pharmacology of "illicit meth" is no different than the pharmacology of legal methamphetamine, other than some contamination. The pharmacology of dextroamphetamine is not so different either, mainly it comes on slightly more slowly and lasts less time.

The reason that crystal meth usage is so bad for society is because the drug is truly terrible for you. I am well aware of everything you said, and I disagree that "just a little bit of amphetamines" is helpful for kids to be receiving for ADD.

I'm confident that history will see me out on this. If you want to give your children speed, have fun.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#85

Post by code_duck »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #79
code_duck wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, and I'm confident sane history will eventually look back in horror at the idiots giving their kids amphetamines willy-nilly. Perhaps some children need this. The vast majority receiving these drugs would benefit a lot more from realistic parenting and school situations than from a toxic, addictive stimulant pill.

Those enlightened future beings will have to discover some theoretical side effects which justify the obvious disadvantages of denying treatment and just haven't been seen yet despite of decades of experience with these drugs. These side effects need to be severe, given the massive amount of consequences of untreated ADHD.

I don't even really believe that ADHD exists. I'm quite confident that I'm amphetamine addiction exists, however.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#86

Post by code_duck »

lfuller wrote: post #82
code_duck wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who took a dosage 30-50 higher times the prescribed dosage of methamphetamine would quickly die. The impurities are irrelevant: the drug is toxic even at normal doses. I disagree with your comparison of acetaminophen and amphetamines. It seems to be based on your deluded idea about dosage, but other than that, the drugs differ in some rather significant ways such as abuse potential, habituation, psychoactivity…

A therapeutic dosage of methamphetamine (Desoxyn) is about 5mg - 15mg, whereas a recreational dosage can be as high as several hundred milligrams. Though certainly toxic at higher doses, research hasn't shown that the drug is toxic at therapeutic levels. Like the majority of drugs, doctors must balance its benefits with any potential side effects. You can disagree with my comparison if you'd like, but the fact remain…

I'm sure all the pharmaceutical corporations would love to have me hooked on their methamphetamine, and the history of these companies and the way they have taken advantage of and poison of the American public should be well known by now.

Amphetamines are highly addictive. They require perpetually higher doses to maintain the same activity in the body, like most other highly addictive substances. I'm sure there are some legitimate therapeutic usages for these drugs (narcolepsy). However, I see them as massively over prescribed to people who do not actually require them.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#87

Post by saosebastiao »

DannyBee wrote: post #55
saosebastiao wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only know of one non-stimulant alternative (strattera), and it didn't work for me (it handled the ADHD to some degree, but the side-effects were terrible). They definitely could use a little more progress in that area, as I would love to stop using Amphetamine derivatives.

For children, there is Intuniv and Kapvay. For adults, only straterra. You do sometimes see wellbutrin as an off-label use. I'm also curious which side-effect you experience from strattera. In my mid-20's, I moved off amphetamines onto it, and have had no side-effects at all. There is essentially no progress in this area because nobody cares. They keep finding new amphetamine derivatives to make, and they are quite c…

For me, it was major cottonmouth, to the point where I constantly felt like I was choking on something.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#88

Post by bayesianhorse »

code_duck wrote: post #85
bayesianhorse wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those enlightened future beings will have to discover some theoretical side effects which justify the obvious disadvantages of denying treatment and just haven't been seen yet despite of decades of experience with these drugs. These side effects need to be severe, given the massive amount of consequences of untreated ADHD.

I don't even really believe that ADHD exists. I'm quite confident that I'm amphetamine addiction exists, however.

There is a very good MOOC on ADHD from coursera, the videos should still be up. I don't think anyone who has a low to medium understanding of the topic can claim that ADHD does not exist. The evidence for the existence is compelling and overwhelming.

A short non-exhaustive summary: visible symptoms, effects on specific cognitive tests, reversal of symptoms under treatment, significant changes in neuroanatomy and brain activity in MRI, differences in EEG spectra and severe consequences like lower Income, higher propensity for violence and addictive behavior plus a markedly worse social life.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#89

Post by code_duck »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #88
code_duck wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even really believe that ADHD exists. I'm quite confident that I'm amphetamine addiction exists, however.

There is a very good MOOC on ADHD from coursera, the videos should still be up. I don't think anyone who has a low to medium understanding of the topic can claim that ADHD does not exist. The evidence for the existence is compelling and overwhelming. A short non-exhaustive summary: visible symptoms, effects on specific cognitive tests, reversal of symptoms under treatment, significant changes in neuroanatomy and brai…

The thing is that I'm more likely to believe its a combination of environmental toxins, food poisons such as artificial coloring and preservatives and incomplete parenting than something that could be treated effectively with more chemicals.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#90

Post by victorhooi »

lutusp wrote: post #53
bayesianhorse wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denying the existence of mental disorders is dangerous and harmful to those who indeed have these disorders. And they are disorders. The science on this is very strong. You see "clusters" of similar conditions in millions of human beings, where each of these clusters/diseases have similar problems, and they share potential remedies. The problems these disorders cause the individual are very real and unmistakeably neg…

> Denying the existence of mental disorders is dangerous and harmful to those who indeed have these disorders. The people you're talking about aren't denying the existence of real disorders, they're denying the existence of phony disorders -- and there are plenty. Asperger's, popular a few years ago, is now recognized as a myth and has been removed from the DSM. Until the mid-'70s homosexuality was listed among the p…

Asperger's wasn't "removed" from the DSM-IV, as you claim - it was folded into the broader category of "autism-spectrum disorders".
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