Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word • Hacker News Board

Re: Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word

#21

Post by ferdo » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 4:32 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #18

ferdo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to know the facts because much of the TPP negotiations and data are being kept secret: "Lack of transparency: The entire process has shut out multi-stakeholder participation and is shrouded in secrecy." - https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp

The TPP is a multilateral trade agreement, all of which are negotiated in private by national representatives, then presented to their respective national governments for ratification. In the U.S. the TPP will require Congressional approval, which will be a very public and long process. Basically: the stuff about "secrecy" is pure scaremongering. There's nothing special about the way TPP is being out together.

It's not scaremongering if it's true. Beyond what's been leaked, there's little to no public information the TPP. It's apparently a big secret only large multinats and selected members of government are in on.

"The stakeholder engagement events in the morning were followed by a stakeholder briefing in the afternoon. The briefing allowed registered individuals from civil society and the public to ask questions of and make comments to eight out of the nine negotiators who represent a TPP country. The press was barred from the room. Roughly 25 people rose from the audience to ask questions to the trade delegates during the 90-minute briefing period. As predicted, they were not transparent about the talks, revealed little new information, and delegates also refused to make any comments based on leaked version of texts—the only text EFF and other public interest organizations have had access to. It is difficult for public stakeholders to ask accurate questions or receive any substantive answers when the content of the agreement continues to be shrouded in secrecy."

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/09/tpp-trade-delegates-sh...

Re: Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word

#22

Post by Nick_C » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 4:35 AM UTC

bpodgursky wrote: post #19

tbrake wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they disagree with GM business practices and don't want to buy them. Is such information available from the stores? On the packaging? At a kiosk somewhere? Where? It's the flipside of the oft proposed "let them vote with their dollars" solution that's not often discussed: in order to make informed decisions people need (easy, plain language) access to honest, total information. If the problem of information is…

Total information is not the same as informative labeling. Companies are not allowed to label the absence of irrelevant things for good reason--when a food is labeled as "X-free", X should in some way be something worth avoiding for some people (if you want a trans-fat-free / carb-free / gluten-free diet, etc.) This is what consumers expect when they see a label advertising the absence of something--that it is worth…

> Companies are not allowed to label the absence of irrelevant things for good reason

Well, they are allowed to here in Australia. For example, we have milk marketed as "permeate-free" despite permeate being a natural milk product.

Re: Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word

#23

Post by Nick_C » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 5:19 AM UTC

patmcguire wrote: post #16

seanica wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wikileaks Party does a good job of summarizing some of the agenda. http://www.wikileaksparty.org.au/why-australians-should-be-w...

'Under the TPP, if a company believes an Australian law endangers its “expected future profits,” it can challenge the government at an investor-state tribunal. This tribunal has the power to overrule Australian laws and levy fines against the Australian state.' If true that's nuts. Even the WTO only lets you do tit-for-tat.

Up to this time, I believe the Aust. govt has refused to endorse this clause. Now that the new Foreign Minister is involved, who knows. I'm not optimistic on this or on copyright extensions. I think we will be sold these under the banner of "being necessary to complete the TPP for the greater good".

Re: Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word

#24

Post by olefoo » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 5:20 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #18

ferdo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to know the facts because much of the TPP negotiations and data are being kept secret: "Lack of transparency: The entire process has shut out multi-stakeholder participation and is shrouded in secrecy." - https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp

The TPP is a multilateral trade agreement, all of which are negotiated in private by national representatives, then presented to their respective national governments for ratification. In the U.S. the TPP will require Congressional approval, which will be a very public and long process. Basically: the stuff about "secrecy" is pure scaremongering. There's nothing special about the way TPP is being out together.

It's going to be on put to a vote under so called "fast-track" rules; where it's not available for mark up or public comment and will have to get an up or down vote within 24 hours. If the text of a complex multi-lateral and "modular" trade agreement is public for less than 48 hours before a binding yes/no vote; that hardly seems like it's in good faith. And it certainly strikes this observer as an attempt to bypass the legislative functions of the American government by private interests. When the ITR can claim with a straight face that keeping treaty negotiations that will result in laws that are binding on every American citizen secret because failure to do so would mean it could not be concluded; you have to assume that the deal is rotten from the ground up.

At the very least the full-text of the agreement should be available publicly for a 90 day comment period before congress votes on it.

Re: Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word

#25

Post by tzs » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 5:31 AM UTC

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #10

chrischen wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with "franken-foods" is, I'm guessing, that brands will not have to label if a food has GMO in it. I thought the US already doesn't require this? Basically, it's some sort of anti-consumer deal (presumably, because consumers have no input in it). Improperly labelled food would impede consumer choice (and thus voting with your purse). Given how popular the organic movement is, labeling food as containing GMO…

And they shouldn't be required to do so. Most foods today are GM in one way or another. It will just become a sign for consumers to stay away from those products when there's really no good reason to do so.

GM technology gives great power. With great power comes great responsibility. I want my GM food labeled so that I can avoid GM foods that come from companies who I do not believe have the responsibility to handle that power.

Re: Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word

#26

Post by seoguru » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 6:52 AM UTC

AmiiJewels wrote: post #6

There seems to be a lot of scare mongering in that video which doesn't help put the point across.."franken-foods"...really? GM foods are and will continue to be a great leap forward in sustainable, scalable agriculture. I still have no idea what the "TPP" thing is...when I look at the other sources I just get things like "you will be banned from being able to modify the save file on your game"...huh really? What if I…

As Elizabeth Warren said:

“I have heard the argument that transparency would undermine the Trade Representative’s policy to complete the trade agreement because public opposition would be significant,” Warren explained. “In other words, if people knew what was going on, they would stop it. This argument is exactly backwards. If transparency would lead to widespread public opposition to a trade agreement, then that trade agreement should not be the policy of the United States.”

watch her here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=kAgJaIwdXLI

democracynow has more info out yesterday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS-x5SlcPPM

Re: Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word

#27

Post by hrktb » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 9:18 AM UTC

AmiiJewels wrote: post #6

There seems to be a lot of scare mongering in that video which doesn't help put the point across.."franken-foods"...really? GM foods are and will continue to be a great leap forward in sustainable, scalable agriculture. I still have no idea what the "TPP" thing is...when I look at the other sources I just get things like "you will be banned from being able to modify the save file on your game"...huh really? What if I…

> reading the actual proposals it is much less sinister.

The whole point is that there's no public discosure of the proposals and only some leaked documents from a year before. If you have more information, please share.

Keeping a sceptical view and expect the worst case scenario out of these talks is the healthiest stance I think. We can always dismiss these when reasonable and scientifically backed arguments point at the contrary.

Re: Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word

#28

Post by eliasmacpherson » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 11:24 AM UTC

bpodgursky wrote: post #19

tbrake wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they disagree with GM business practices and don't want to buy them. Is such information available from the stores? On the packaging? At a kiosk somewhere? Where? It's the flipside of the oft proposed "let them vote with their dollars" solution that's not often discussed: in order to make informed decisions people need (easy, plain language) access to honest, total information. If the problem of information is…

Total information is not the same as informative labeling. Companies are not allowed to label the absence of irrelevant things for good reason--when a food is labeled as "X-free", X should in some way be something worth avoiding for some people (if you want a trans-fat-free / carb-free / gluten-free diet, etc.) This is what consumers expect when they see a label advertising the absence of something--that it is worth…

I don't think that preconceived ignorance of the public's grasp of the finer points should be allowed to overrule informed people's legitimate concern with e.g. Monsanto having a monopoly on the dna and distribution of the seeds used to grow food. Information wants to be free, or something.

I think it's scientific to observe a single point of failure in a distribution network that everyone depends on due to a monopoly and try to mitigate it.

In lieu of warnings that you think are unfair, I think with the advent of smartphones and ubiquitous internet - it should not be too hard to have a barcode like scanner to show the origins of all the ingredients for mass produced food.

Re: Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word

#29

Post by justincormack » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 11:27 AM UTC

patmcguire wrote: post #16

seanica wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wikileaks Party does a good job of summarizing some of the agenda. http://www.wikileaksparty.org.au/why-australians-should-be-w...

'Under the TPP, if a company believes an Australian law endangers its “expected future profits,” it can challenge the government at an investor-state tribunal. This tribunal has the power to overrule Australian laws and levy fines against the Australian state.' If true that's nuts. Even the WTO only lets you do tit-for-tat.

The idea of TPP is to extend the stalled WTO process by multilateral treaty. So you can expect it to go further in many ways. We just don't know what most of them are due to the secrecy...

Re: Everybody Let's Stop the TPP: Share These Videos and Spread the Word

#30

Post by twoodfin » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 1:53 PM UTC

seoguru wrote: post #26

AmiiJewels wrote: post #6

There seems to be a lot of scare mongering in that video which doesn't help put the point across.."franken-foods"...really? GM foods are and will continue to be a great leap forward in sustainable, scalable agriculture. I still have no idea what the "TPP" thing is...when I look at the other sources I just get things like "you will be banned from being able to modify the save file on your game"...huh really? What if I…

As Elizabeth Warren said: “I have heard the argument that transparency would undermine the Trade Representative’s policy to complete the trade agreement because public opposition would be significant,” Warren explained. “In other words, if people knew what was going on, they would stop it. This argument is exactly backwards. If transparency would lead to widespread public opposition to a trade agreement, then that tr…

This is a pretty silly argument from Sen. Warren. Put aside the fact that she can't even be bothered to ascribe the argument to any named individual, nobody's arguing that the agreements themselves shouldn't be public and "transparent".

A modern trade agreement represents a balancing of a huge number of private interests. Some will benefit and some will be harmed, but the overall outcome is expected to be positive for all sides. Achieving that balance will require concessions from both sides. It is an extraordinary restraint on the capabilities of the USTR if they must worry about every concession they offer (which may never even make it into the deal) being trumpeted to the rooftops by domestic political opposition.

This is really common sense. It's the same reason the military base closure commission deliberates in private, or, for that matter, why the U.S. Supreme Court does, even with no direct electoral politics at issue.