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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#381
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the workers that don't move will still have a basic income. Without the 'need' to immediately get new employment, those workers can take the time to train for, or create from scratch, a more fulfilling job at a company that won't pack up and relocate when social welfare is given priority over greed.

But the workers that don't move will still have a basic income. Unless/until the money runs out, which might happen more quickly than you think if, indeed companies and wealthy individuals start packing up and leaving the country.

Exactly. The money has to come from somewhere, it's a balancing act. Set taxes too high and you lose the tax base and don't generate enough revenue (5% of 0 is still 0), set too low and you may not generate enough revenue.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#382
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hold CHF as a hedge against inflation and/or government defaults, not as a growth investment.

Well, then it's not overvalued, is it? People value it as a hedge, so it's relative value increases.

In a certain sense it's always true that free-floating currencies are "correctly valued", in the sense that their value is what the market currently is willing to pay. As far as I know, CHF has no exchange restrictions or capital controls, so it's valued at whatever forex traders are willing to pay for it. If anything, the Swiss Central Bank has been trying to intervene on the other side, to bring the price down through monetary policy (due to worries that the high CHF value is hurting exports).

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots and lots of poor, uneducated, unacculturated citizens, and Switzerland quickly turns into Bangladesh. Brilliant idea!

LOL, you just described UK. Multiculturalism doesn't work - it has been tested here.

Hasn't it been tested in Canada, too?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#384
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to put things in perspective (I'm swiss), 2500CHF is a really low salary in Switzerland. There is another initiative asking for a minimum wage of 4000CHF per month. The median swiss salary is close to 6000CHF[1]. The administration says the poverty line is around 2200CHF per month for someone living alone [2]. You can't really just convert to $ and say it's a lot of money. A lot of basic stuff like food, transpo…

Live near the border with France. Buy everything there in EUR. Border is nonexistent for all practical purposes so this is very doable.

This is common on the German border also. Lots of people living in the southern part of Baden-Württemberg and commuting to jobs in Zürich and Basel.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can assure you, I didn't use the term casually. > many muslim immigrants refuse to assimilate to the point of wanting to be governed by separate sets of laws That's a tiny minority of the UK's immigrant community. Drawing general conclusions from such an unrepresentative sample is intellectually dishonest. It's the kind of argument seized upon by hate-mongers.

It seems like you're the ignorant one here. Center for Social Cohesion: One Third of British Muslim students support killing for Islam http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-... http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/pdf/IslamonCampus.pdf

One third of British Muslim students say they support killing for Islam. What about their actions, though? Cognitive dissonance is pretty common among religious people. A lot of Christians agree with the statement, "If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away", but there still aren't many actual eye-gouging cases.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#386
post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

Converting $33,600 basic income (assuming this goes to every adult, 210 million people) to the entire population (318 million) is about $22,200 per capita.

Per capita income in the United States in 2012 was $42,693 [1]. Assuming that would remain unchanged, taxes to fund a basic income of $22,200 that would leave $20,500 per capita.

Per-capita state tax collections are already 2,435.11 [2] and federal tax collections are $8,528.22 [3]. Most states have to run a balanced budget but federal revenue only covers about 65% of outlays, so really we're looking at about $13,000 per capita federal spending that eventually needs to be paid for. So subtract $15,435 to cover current outlays.

Now we're at about $5,000 left over to pay for everything else: food, clothes, utilities, rent/mortgage, education, and all the other local taxes that fund essential services, e.g. local sales taxes, property taxes, various other fees and excise taxes.

Even if you did away with other "safety net" programs such as welfare and food stamps because they are replaced by basic income, there simply isn't enough REAL economic activity in the country to give everyone this kind of basic income.

1. http://bber.unm.edu/econ/us-pci.htm 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_tax_levels_in_the_United... 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_tax_revenue_by_state

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we could deport people who throw around the "racist" label casually. There is nothing racist about believing that big, complex, interdependent societies function best when people share basic values, beliefs, and culture. It's the difference between multiculturalism as practiced in the U.S., where e.g. asian immigrants to the west coast have assimilated the basic values of american society while remaining disti…

I can assure you, I didn't use the term casually. > many muslim immigrants refuse to assimilate to the point of wanting to be governed by separate sets of laws That's a tiny minority of the UK's immigrant community. Drawing general conclusions from such an unrepresentative sample is intellectually dishonest. It's the kind of argument seized upon by hate-mongers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1he0nxU4FQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgKMI1wV0ps#t=519

(the "soft" examples with some balanced views)

Just go ahead and pretend that this is not a bomb ready to go off in about 10-30 years when the minority becomes the majority.

Then ignore facts and basic crime stats, dangerous religious views being encouraged, increases in violence and hostility, the formation of no-go zones, active tribalism practices amongst the immigrant groups even passed the 3rd generation, rejection of democracy, etc.

Pretend those are all just figments of our imagination.

Then use words like "racist" and "hate-monger" towards anyone that does not subscribe to your fiction.

The truth is a badly implemented immigration policy based on false premises dose nothing but change a society with a few miserable people to a society completely full of miserable people (on both sides - native and non-native).

It does not even matter it is only a "minority"...

It takes 100s of people, and 1000s of man-years, to construct a building.

It takes 1 person 5 minutes and 1 gallon of gasoline to burn that building down.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#389
post #371
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An increase in the marketable value of the land is considered an increase in income in such a model. (In fact, it -is- treated as an increase in income, just like the federal government in the US treat the distribution of restricted stock [which generally cannot be sold] as income.) Your statement about productivity might hold true, if it weren't for the fact that (at least here in my state), the tax value of land is…

If the tax is also based on improvements and use of the land, then it's not "Georgist": "Many municipal governments of the USA depend on real property tax as their main source of revenue, although such taxes are not "Georgist" as they generally include the value of buildings and other improvements, one exception being the town of Altoona, Pennsylvania, which only taxes land value." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi…

To be fair, I wasn't implying that it was Georgian or not, simply referring to whether or not it could be construed as being related to income (i.e. the more income you have, the more you make improvements).

> This would help to better distribution of wealth because it would make it difficult for rich people to get richer by just buying and selling (or renting in this case) without providing additional value.

I can't disagree with this more. Typically, real-estate investors bridge a temporal problem between a selling user today, and a buying user tomorrow. If there were no such investors, selling users would be inhibited from realizing the value of their property until another suitable user was ready to purchase the land. This could create a complete standstill in some markets, and cause lots of property owner-users to face major issues in hard economic times, when selling their property could get them well over it. There is an entire section of town where live (Houston, EaDo) where this temporal bridging allowed a lot of industrial users to move out of the city to less expensive locales, and then eventually that area to turn into more residential and mixed-use because the industrial users were able to sell it at a reasonable price when they needed to, and the investors took the risk of holding on to the property for years (in some cases decades) until the market demanded more value for the area.

There are many that would argue (myself included) that the taking of risk by the investor to capitalize the user-seller today, even if there is no existing user-buyer, is providing additional value in the market. Without going into meta-discussion here, much of the underpinnings of our entire system are based on the recognition of value in resolving these sorts of temporal problems.

Moreover, making it more difficult to rent property will do more harm to the poorest amongst us, who can least afford to outright buy it. Most of the rental houses I've seen available are not owned by extremely wealthy people (for good reason: rental houses are generally poor performers in regards to ROI), but instead by middle-class families, who choose to rent out a house rather than sell it. There are, yes, rental blocks of apartments - but I would argue these are the kind of activity you want, most of the large ones I know of are owned by REITs, who tend to pool a large amount of money from a large amount of people (mostly institutional ownership, and IRS rules limit the individual ownership in a REIT) to purchase, develop, and then operate land. If there is no possibility to continue to rent land once developed, then what purpose is there to develop it?

The state I live in is Texas.

If you want to create better distribution of wealth, preventing people from investing in real-estate seems like a very rough and roundabout way of achieving this. Why not address the low-hanging fruit first, like incentives from the government. Here's one I'd start with: extend the time to hold on capital gains (and while we're at it, take a good look at carried interest and washing rules for tax-loss harvesting!), and give a refundable tax credit for putting money in qualified college savings accounts.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#390
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that has always confused me with this claim in regards to basic incomes - if our current model is "We have welfare so people don't die when they can't get food, medical care, etc", then what happens when someone receiving a basic income spends it all on hookers and blow? Are we okay with letting him die now, because he had the option to pay for his basic needs and just chose not to? Or are we still going to…

Most welfare systems in developed countries don't specify what the recipient has to spend payments on, anyway.

Yeah, food stamps don't exist in most countries because it seems undignified
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