Earlier quoted context omitted.
> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I think that with basic income, this question would not make sense, and that's exactly the reason that I like the idea so much. The reason why people do boring, dirty and dangerous work for little money is that there are folks who have no skills that would enable them to get a more fulfill…
Unfortunately, there is actual experimental evidence to the contrary. Some of the Arabian Emirates have cash payments to their ethnically Arabian citizens that are practically equivalent to a high basic income. In those cases, all the "dirty" labor is done by legal/illegal immigrants that are not eligible for said basic income and thus willing to work for much less. IMO this is the central problem with the idea of a…
Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
241–250 of 582 posts
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
What happens if you take the implicitly-assumed-to-be-ridiculous third option, and give every visitor a green card and a basic income voucher when they cross the border? Then you don't have any illegal immigrants, just lots and lots and lots of citizens. (Don't just reply with the obviously-bad first-order effect on the country receiving the immigrants; remember that bad things would also be happening to the labor po…
Lots and lots of poor, uneducated, unacculturated citizens, and Switzerland quickly turns into Bangladesh. Brilliant idea!
LOL, you just described UK. Multiculturalism doesn't work - it has been tested here.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
First of all, I didn't down vote you. Secondly, all I suggested was that the OP take cost of living into account for his calculations. This is hardly senseless considering that cost of living in most Swiss cities is higher than most tier 2 American cities. Swiss cities often rank at the top for most expensive cities in the world so yeah, I'd say cost of living is certainly on the high side. Of course they also rank a…
My tone is out of line, huh? How about your entire comment is factually wrong and yet you picked an advisory tone for it. The coke doesn't cost 6 franks, nor the cost of living is "extremely high". Also, you should realize that people who might be interested in these 2500CHF will not be living in Zurich, which is more of an exception in terms of cost of living in Switzerland rather than the norm.
The reasons for saying CH is expensive is usually true only for travelers because the currency is so overvaluated comparatively to their own currency. While inside the country with a decent salary you are usually better off than most countries.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#244Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't see how paying citizens from age zero could possibly be a good idea. Either the government will have control on how that money can be spent (through regulation or otherwise) or the parents will, and I wouldn't consider either case good. Requiring accreditation for services that can be bought with the kids money won't prevent people from corrupting or exploiting the system, only delay them. I also think that w…
There needs to be some incentive for tedious work to be done at a modest wage. Otherwise the supply of labor will crash through the floor. As for accreditation of services, I agree to a limited extent. Personally I think government should -- where possible -- get out of the business of service delivery and focus on accreditation. The idea of a government selling pizza is absurd, but so is the idea of a government all…
> There needs to be some incentive for tedious work to be done at a modest wage. Otherwise the supply of labor will crash through the floor.
Of human labor, yes, but fortunately we have machines and computers... And that's exactly the point. Forcing people to do things machines can do is one of the most irrational and sadistic aspects of modern civilization. The principal reason we have such a situation is the absence of basic income, or some equivalent that would eliminate the need for wage slavery in exchange for bare survival. For all other kinds of work, if it really is something humans are necessary for, people will do it because it means it's interesting (or necessary, and I think jobs which are impossible, at the moment, to automate and necessary and completely uninteresting to anybody are so few that there will never be shortage of labor).
EDIT: grammar.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
People always want more, so this will allow people to live comfortably while they, for example, acquire a more profitable skill than what they currently have. Then they will earn more, and pay more taxes, and the cycle continues. Alternatively, the Swiss government may have enough money to invest it all and pay for this out of dividends. Just because the US is broke doesn't mean that everyone is.
The US is nowhere near broke compared even to most developed countries. The Swiss don't have a trust fund like Norway.
The US could lose half of it's GDP and still be in front of every other nation in terms of wealth. It borrows a lot of money, more than it takes in. But that's based on the past and present growth. It's a fine line the US walks. But you're right, the US is in now way broke. It's like the Donald Trump of countries. Even "broke" it's worth more than you because it has so much earning potential.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#246Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's easy to say after the facts, but if women aren't allowed to vote and aren't citizens, then 100% of citizens do vote. Most systems we call democracies don't consider their population under 18 as citizens, thus don't allow them to vote, and that's usually around 20% of population. Most also don't consider that immigrants should vote, and in the case of Switzerland that's another 20 or 25%. I'm obviously not saying…
I didn't imagine my statement would be so controversial. Granted, it's just my personal opinion, but if women aren't citizens that's not a democracy either.
> if women aren't citizens that's not a democracy either.
And if children aren't citizens? If immigrants (who live in the country, pay taxes, etc.) aren't citizens?
The place where democracy first happened, where the name came from, was ancient Athens circa 500BC. The only people allowed to vote were adult male citizens who had been through military training.
I do (lest there be any doubt) agree that a polity in which a large fraction of the population can't vote is an unsatisfactory sort of democracy. But I think what's wrong with these places is that they are bad democracies, not that they aren't democracies.
(The line between "bad democracy" and "not democracy" is a bit fuzzy. Take an ordinary democracy and say that you can't vote if your net worth is negative; what you get is, at least in my opinion, a bad democracy but still a democracy. But say that you can't vote unless your net worth is in the top 5% of the population and you've got a plutocracy. The transition between the two is a gradual and ill-defined one.)
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#247If this passes, I suspect that Switzerland would see a MAJOR, MAJOR spike in inbound immigration requests. I would love to see what that spike would look like.
Not to talk about an enormous spike in unemployment rate, just like in all other countries where you get paid money for not doing anything. I.e. in Denmark where I come from, we have 400.000 people - out of a population of 6mill - who gain nothing or very little from working, to a point where it don't make sense to work at all, compared to just receiving unemployment pay. And logically people opt to just not work.
The difference is that in Denmark (I assume) you trade unemployment benefits when not working to a roughly equivalent salary when you start working. So no, you don't gain anything.
With the proposed Swiss system, any salary you earned would be in addition to the basic salary, so there would still be an incentive to work. It's just that it's not strictly necessary to survive.
I think the proposed system makes better, as the economical margin effect of working is not negligible, as it is when you just have unemployment benefits.
NB: I live in Sweden, and I'm assuming your system is similar to ours. It's a problem I have observed here and I suspect the same applies to you. I may be wrong if it works differently.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#248A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…
One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. The people who already do them: immigrants, which make up more than 20% of the population of Switzerland.
I would think that most would would probably keep their jobs. But instead of bringing home only 3000-3500 they would probably bring close to 6000.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#249Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
The exchange rate that would equalise the price of a Swiss Big Mac with an American one is SFr1.55 to the dollar; the actual exchange rate is only 0.96. [1] == Swiss Franc is most overvalued currency [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/01/daily-c...
I get your point, however is it really true to say that? If it were, people would sell the currency to get out while the going is good wouldn't they? How could it stay consistently over priced?
It's a really nice place to live. You pay for what you get...