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Melatonin

gwern.net

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Re: Melatonin

#71

Post by codev »

DanBC wrote: post #11

There are some problems with Melatonin (as supplied) - you don't really know how much (if any) you're getting. Investigators found that quality control was very poor and some brands contained very little melatonin. (I can't find it now, but it was something like Consumer Reports or similar?) It's a prescription only med in some places (UK) so you might not be able to get it. But it is "remarkably effective"[1] for je…

Zopiclone can be habit forming and has an associated increase risk of road traffic accidents like most hypnotics - wikipedia is a good start for the risks.

I think melatonin is a better drug for correcting problems with sleep cycles which can include jet lag, changes in season and the like but there's plenty you can do help your sleep quality without drugs.

Here's a great article (about Huntington's disease but applies to everyone - it really helped me) based on a published paper in Experimental Neurology:

http://en.hdbuzz.net/120

Re: Melatonin

#72

Post by pesenti »

thebooktocome wrote: post #62
pesenti wrote: post #51

Melatonin is a clear-cut Good Thing. The gains I have laid out are large enough I consider it irrational for someone not to use it. I consider it irrational for someone to believe that a limited number of hand-selected studies can give you absolute confidence.

First, it's not a "limited number of hand-selected studies." The Brzezinski meta-study ( http://www.gwern.net/docs/melatonin/2005-brzezinski.pdf ) alone covered 17 studies and 284 participants. There's even a clear, well-documented causal mechanism, which can't be said for most of the supplement industry. Even if it were a limited number of studies, gwern's not going for "absolute confidence". (Indeed, requiring "abs…

And how do you claim to calculate expected value here? You are making the same error he is by ignoring the possible "black swan", which, with every drug, can have dramatic consequences.

A positive but cautious conclusion like http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/m... would have been much more appropriate.

Re: Melatonin

#74

Post by IanDrake »

I take 3mg and it works to help me sleep after an hour. I try to get to bed by 10:30.

My biggest problem still is that my alarm at 6AM wakes me during my active dream cycle and most restful sleep. I'm not sure how to time shift that to meet my needs.

Any advice?

Re: Melatonin

#75

Post by gesman »

jtheory wrote: post #19
gesman wrote: post #3

I works great when you have this "thinking in your sleep and wake up even more tired" syndrome. Melatonin related supplemements helps you relax quickly and really sleep deep. I personally found that taking 1/3 of recommended dose works perfectly. Taking full doze making me wake up in such a limb state - that it takes me literally one hour for muscles to get back into their ability to move the body. Another thing is t…

How much more deeply does it make you sleep? I have small children; I don't want to be difficult to wake.

I use this (sleep support one):

http://vibrantme.isagenix.com/ca/en/brainsleepsystem.html

1 week was enough for me.

It allows to relax and fall asleep quickly. Small doses will do and they will not diminish your ability to wake up and take care of kids.

Again - start with 1/3 of recommended dose and you should be fine.

Re: Melatonin

#76

Post by DanielBMarkham »

porker wrote: post #66
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #48

I've been using melatonin for years every night. As a person that has extreme obstructive sleep apnea, I credit melatonin with providing me a modicum of restful sleep for the years I didn't use a CPAP. Now that I have one, melatonin helps improve my "normal" sleep patterns. Anecdotaly, I find melatonin usage helps my brain rewire itself every night. My belief is that increases the number of connections and associatio…

> But not all of it. Melatonin is one of the 2 or 3 supplements I use that I believe really make a huge and immediately perceivable difference. What would the other 2 or 3 be? I've found Vitamin D (taken as a liquid) to be one.

Vitamin D-3 is one.

Resveratrol is on my "maybe" list. I'm seeing some really interesting research, but the good stuff may end up being patented and sold as a drug, which sucks.

I'm still a Vitamin C fan, even though it's fallen out of favor. Seems to help when I've stressed out my system through alcohol or other chemical irritants.

Also on my "to-watch" list is delta tocotrienols, one of the components of vitamin E. Saw some interesting evidence that it might be good at actually helping to remove coronary artery blockage, but it's still WAY preliminary. And no, that's not a recommendation for vitamin E itself, which in larger doses can cause all sorts of problems. Just the delta series.

The B series of vitamins are interesting, as there seems to be a good-sized gap between the amount most people have in their bloodstream and the amount that they can carry easily. A little dose of B-12 seems to help me enormously with concentration. At least for a short period. YMMV.

Note this is all subjective, and based on half-assed research and gossip. That's one of the rules in this arena: there are no rules. :)

Re: Melatonin

#77

Post by jimzvz »

realitygrill wrote: post #13

I use melatonin regularly to regulate my sleep cycle. It's a very effective part of a regimen (sleep hygiene, f.lux, etc) that allows me to manage a nearly-decade long problem of insomnia. However, from a psychological standpoint, it's a very good thing melatonin is so safe. Every single person I've ever recommended melatonin to, I've directed to this article and discussed it with them. Every single such person then…

I have terrible sleep habits and often find it difficult to fall asleep before 5am. I have been considering trying melatonin but my major concern is that I will become dependent on it. I don't want my body to stop producing whatever small amount it already does through its use as a supplement.

How dependent on it would you say you are? How well would you function if you were unable to get hold of it?

Re: Melatonin

#78

Post by bti »

IanDrake wrote: post #74

I take 3mg and it works to help me sleep after an hour. I try to get to bed by 10:30. My biggest problem still is that my alarm at 6AM wakes me during my active dream cycle and most restful sleep. I'm not sure how to time shift that to meet my needs. Any advice?

I was going to recommend sleepytime[1] to try and find a good time to go to bed at if you want to get up at 6AM. It looks like 10:30 is a good time though. Maybe try to find your sleep cycles and set your alarm for a time when you are not in deep sleep? There are some smartphone apps that are meant to help do this.

[1] http://sleepyti.me/

Re: Melatonin

#79

Post by martythemaniak »

IanDrake wrote: post #74

I take 3mg and it works to help me sleep after an hour. I try to get to bed by 10:30. My biggest problem still is that my alarm at 6AM wakes me during my active dream cycle and most restful sleep. I'm not sure how to time shift that to meet my needs. Any advice?

There's alarm apps that will let you set your alarm based on sleep cycles. If that doesn't work, you can try various sleep measurement devices to wake you up at the right time.

Re: Melatonin

#80

Post by refurb »

Zenst wrote: post #60
ChikkaChiChi wrote: post #18

The problem with a lack of FDA regulation is that there is no guarantee on what you are taking. The freshness of the product and the veracity of what's in the pills will always be suspect to me. If I could trust where I get my melatonin from, I would gladly take it. But I've learned too much about how terrible this industry is.

The issue here is that it is a natural chemical and with that nobody can patent it. The cost for drug approval (in many countries) is high and this is the crux. No company is going to finance the approval process as they have no way to control there financial return upon that investment as they can not patent the drug they are getting approval upon. So everybody else can just ride there investment and that is the cas…

Companies can obtain market exclusivity without a patent. In the US, the FDA assigns 5 years of market exclusivity based on a NDA approval. If it's an orphan disease, it's 7 years. You can also bump up the exclusivity by 6 months if you get approved in a pediatric indication.

That said, there isn't much incentive for a company to do this. Let's say a company spend $200M getting FDA approval for melatonin. Considering the huge population that it would be used in, the FDA would require a very large trial to determine safety. Once launched, the drug company would need to recover that cost plus a profit, so suddenly melatonin goes from a few pennies per dose to several dollars. The push back from the public would probably kill any chance of making it a profitable venture.

What drug companies did do was create melatonin analogues. Rozerem by Takeda is a great example. It hasn't done that well.

As for omega-3s, GSK did get Lovaza approved by the FDA although they did have a patent on it (a specific form of omega-3s).

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