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Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

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Re: Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

#51

Post by Jacqued »

chasing wrote: post #16

It looks like about half of the countries in that little map are off of their natural time zone by at least as much as Spain. Including basically all of the former Soviet Union, except the Ukraine and Baltics. And Iceland. And, well, France, which mostly overlaps Spain time-zone-wise.

Indeed, it seems like an incomplete explanation at the very least.

France largely overlaps Spain in terms of [latitude] longitude, is in the same time zone, shares some of the traditions cited in the article (long lunch break, midddle-of-the-morning and middle-of-the-afternoon coffee breaks, dinner at 8pm), and has one of the highest productivities in the world, in line with the US, Japan or the UK (above if you count it per hour worked).

So maybe they should look for an explanation somewhere else

Edit : fixed latitude instead of longitude

Re: Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

#52

Post by mjn »

Oletros wrote: post #42
mjn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe the correlation is rather in the other direction. Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest [edit: oops, actually Dutch [1]]. Here in prosperous Denmark, the official workweek is 37 hours, not 40, and the limit is taken seriously. When we do joint projects with Southern Europeans, they seem to regularly be working weekends and evenings, and get paid less than us for it. [1] ht…

And we can start talking about the real worked hours and not the official ones

That's using real worked hours (well, estimates of them by the OECD). In Greece's case the official hours are actually not particularly high for people with regular jobs, just the usual 40 hours/week. But the actual worked hours are quite high, because of the prevalence of unpaid overtime in the private sector, and the large number of mom-and-pop shops that can't afford to hire employees, so work the shop themselves from open 'til close. This contrasts with Northern European work culture, which tends to work exactly the official workweek and not a minute more.

I misremembered Belgium, though; it was the Netherlands that's the lowest in the OECD. Here is the list: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS

Re: Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

#53

Post by mdpye »

opminion wrote: post #5
bbwharris wrote: post #4

I lived in Spain for about a year. Blame it on the time zone, but inherently the culture is "work to live" not "live to work". I miss it and sincerely cherish that country and all the great people in it.

Yet nobody I know in Spain likes the compulsory 2 hour lunch breaks.

It is a serious burden if you work in an office which is air conditioned anyway. The most serious problem being that the long (and it was generally 3 hours in the south where I was staying) break is intended for sleeping.

Problem is, most people now don't live 5 minutes walk from their place of work, so there isn't time to get home and sleep before returning to the office. But there is nothing else to do. Everyone else is on the same break. You can't run your errands for the day because everywhere else is shut as well.

As a student living 5 minutes from my classes, I found the dual sleep (usually about 4am til 8am and 1pm til 3pm) with the main meal in the middle of the day to be fantastic, but for modern working conditions and commuters it is a serious problem.

Re: Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

#54

Post by Samuel_Michon »

mjn wrote: post #41
jdimov wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. There is exactly zero statistical correlation between the amount of work you do and the quality of life you lead. Furthermore, it is extremely hypocritical to make comments like yours.

In Europe the correlation is rather in the other direction. Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest [edit: oops, actually Dutch [1]]. Here in prosperous Denmark, the official workweek is 37 hours, not 40, and the limit is taken seriously. When we do joint projects with Southern Europeans, they seem to regularly be working weekends and evenings, and get paid less than us for it. [1] ht…

> Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest.

Also taking into account GDP divided by population, that implies Greeks get less done per hour than Belgians. To call Southern Europeans ‘lazy’ would be a bit much, but I do think the numbers support that they have a different work ethic from Northern Europeans.

I live in the Netherlands, where people work 30 hours a week on average. Yet, the Netherlands is one of the most productive countries in the world, if GDP (PPP) is to be believed[1]. (Then again, on that chart, Greece is placed only one spot lower, so that may not be the best source.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_...

Re: Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

#55

Post by mjn »

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #54
mjn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe the correlation is rather in the other direction. Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest [edit: oops, actually Dutch [1]]. Here in prosperous Denmark, the official workweek is 37 hours, not 40, and the limit is taken seriously. When we do joint projects with Southern Europeans, they seem to regularly be working weekends and evenings, and get paid less than us for it. [1] ht…

> Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest. Also taking into account GDP divided by population, that implies Greeks get less done per hour than Belgians. To call Southern Europeans ‘lazy’ would be a bit much, but I do think the numbers support that they have a different work ethic from Northern Europeans. I live in the Netherlands, where people work 30 hours a week on average. Yet, the…

Sure, I'm simply responding to the "laziness" argument.

Greece's problem is indeed productivity, not lack of hard work. There are a lot of hard-working mom-and-pop shops which put in many hours, but cannot anymore compete in a globalized economy, when their international competitors are streamlined corporations. Here in Denmark we work fewer hours, but rather than work them in a DIY import/export business like is common in Greece, in Denmark those hours are put into a giant globalized logistics business like Maersk. The end result is more productivity, not because the individual Maersk employee is more hardworking while the Greek import/export guy is lazy (the opposite is likely true), but simply because 10,000 mom-and-pop businesses put together cannot compete with a well-oiled machine like Maersk.

Re: Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

#56

Post by olmo »

olmo wrote: post #44

I'm Spanish and I've software company. Here is my schedule: 9-14 morning work 14-15 lunch 15-18 evening work 18-20 (aprox) partners-only work Dunno in construction or other sectors, in consultancy we work more hours and I've never seen anybody taking siesta on labor days. Some people make siesta when 2 of the following 3 things are true: Summer + Old people + Sunday.

I don't think that changing the time zone is going to make any productivity or 'family time' change. We work a lot of hours because there are more employees than companies. Market laws.

I think, however, that changing the time zone will improve our reputation. Currently we're at sync with sun time, but from the point of view of a tourist it means that we have lunch, get out of work, have dinner and go to bed at least 1 hour later than on 'normal countries', and this contributes to the fame of 'lazy country'.

Once we change the hour, after a period of adaptation, we will do everything pretty much the same but S&P will come an say... hey! look at Spain, now they deserve credit because they go to bed earlier, we should lend them money!.

Finally, we currently go into work at 9 as everyone else, but for us the sun is at 8. Nobody realizes because we have more sun hours (in winter).

Re: Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

#57

Post by ollysb »

gotrecruit wrote: post #46
ashray wrote: post #22

This I found a bit condescending: This extra-long workday has given us some fun Spanish cultural quirks, like the 9 p.m. dinner hour and the two-hour lunch break. I know that folks in the US, Germany and some other countries eat at or around 6pm but I also know that folks in most of Latin America, India, Thailand, etc. eat at 8-9pm or so. So why is this considered a 'cultural quirk' ? A little culturally insensitive…

what's so condescending about the work "quirk"? as far as i'm concerned, the word has never been known to be used in a derogatory manner.

Quirk implies that it's not very common, actually there's a large number of countries that do the same thing.

Re: Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

#58

Post by mynegation »

Jacqued wrote: post #51
chasing wrote: post #16

It looks like about half of the countries in that little map are off of their natural time zone by at least as much as Spain. Including basically all of the former Soviet Union, except the Ukraine and Baltics. And Iceland. And, well, France, which mostly overlaps Spain time-zone-wise.

Indeed, it seems like an incomplete explanation at the very least. France largely overlaps Spain in terms of [latitude] longitude, is in the same time zone, shares some of the traditions cited in the article (long lunch break, midddle-of-the-morning and middle-of-the-afternoon coffee breaks, dinner at 8pm), and has one of the highest productivities in the world, in line with the US, Japan or the UK (above if you coun…

You most definitely meant "longitude", not "latitude", right?

Re: Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

#59

Post by moocowduckquack »

gotrecruit wrote: post #46
ashray wrote: post #22

This I found a bit condescending: This extra-long workday has given us some fun Spanish cultural quirks, like the 9 p.m. dinner hour and the two-hour lunch break. I know that folks in the US, Germany and some other countries eat at or around 6pm but I also know that folks in most of Latin America, India, Thailand, etc. eat at 8-9pm or so. So why is this considered a 'cultural quirk' ? A little culturally insensitive…

what's so condescending about the work "quirk"? as far as i'm concerned, the word has never been known to be used in a derogatory manner.

So I assume your blindness to the possibility of condescension from someone indicating that another countries cultural norms are nothing more than a peculiar idiosyncracy, thus indicating that their own cultural standards should be considered to be the norm, must be just a quirk in your character and nothing to really take particularly seriously then.

(note, this comment is meant illustratively)

Re: Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone

#60

Post by yebyen »

acchow wrote: post #27
opminion wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The so called (in English) "siesta", which in Spanish would be just "the lunch break", is a compulsory long break in many professions. Many would rather close shop at 5 or 6 than at 9pm, but everyone has to do it at once or it won't work. The solution most would expect to succeed is a legal one: I know of a dev shop that could easily switch to a 9-5 schedule, as many banks and civil servants have already, but it has…

> Many would rather close shop at 5 or 6 than at 9pm Wait, how does extending lunch by an extra hour push closing time by 3-4 hours?

I guess everyone is slow after a two hour lunch having three or six cervezas for an extra hour or two of the afternoon?

I don't know, that's a good question.

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