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At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

theguardian.com

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Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#121

Post by marrs »

waps wrote: post #110
flumbaps wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam isn't a system of laws, it's a religion. Like all organised religions, what's written in its holy books is of far less practical importance than what is preached by its leaders. Adherents don't read and figure out for themselves, they follow what they are told the books say. Like most religious leaders, the Islamic holy men tend to preach what is convenient to them. The fact that the religion is Islam isn't of…

"Islam isn't a system of laws" Really ? Have you ever -even once- asked a muslim this ? Seriously ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

Islam isn't a system of laws. Sharia is not Islam. I'm pretty amazed that I've just read this thread, to be honest.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#122

Post by flumbaps »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #117
flumbaps wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam isn't a system of laws, it's a religion. Like all organised religions, what's written in its holy books is of far less practical importance than what is preached by its leaders. Adherents don't read and figure out for themselves, they follow what they are told the books say. Like most religious leaders, the Islamic holy men tend to preach what is convenient to them. The fact that the religion is Islam isn't of…

Islam absolutely contains a set of laws. For the Muslim, you cannot have the religion without the law. Even in countries where Islam is the minority, disputes between Muslims are settled by a community Islamic court...

Please read again. I have not denied that Islam contains a set of laws. I said that Islam is not exactly equal to a set of laws. Which is correct.

I've also stated that, in practical terms, it is the behaviour and beliefs of the religious leaders that matter more that the laws themselves. The community Islamic courts you cite are a perfect example of this. You seem to expect them to behave according to some monolithic interpretation of Sharia law. Whereas, in reality, these courts are run by the Islamic community and are presided over by local religious leaders who make decisions (and interpret the laws) according to their own beliefs, informed by their own prejudices and self interests.

If you have any doubt that this is true, then simply consider that there are moderate Muslims in the world, and there are Muslims that believe God wants them to commit murder. Do you think it is a coincidence that those who see the West as the devil come from countries where the West has severely harmed in the past through selfish and corrupt interference? Do you think it is by chance that within the West and within countries allied with the West, we find more moderate viewpoints?

Religious rhetoric aligns itself with realpolitik. It is naive to see it in any other terms.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#123

Post by marrs »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #117
flumbaps wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam isn't a system of laws, it's a religion. Like all organised religions, what's written in its holy books is of far less practical importance than what is preached by its leaders. Adherents don't read and figure out for themselves, they follow what they are told the books say. Like most religious leaders, the Islamic holy men tend to preach what is convenient to them. The fact that the religion is Islam isn't of…

Islam absolutely contains a set of laws. For the Muslim, you cannot have the religion without the law. Even in countries where Islam is the minority, disputes between Muslims are settled by a community Islamic court...

This is true, but besides the point. Laws on how to treat slaves are redundant in a country where slavery is illegal. And there is nothing in Islam to say that keeping slaves is compulsory or even desirable.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#124

Post by flumbaps »

waps wrote: post #110
flumbaps wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam isn't a system of laws, it's a religion. Like all organised religions, what's written in its holy books is of far less practical importance than what is preached by its leaders. Adherents don't read and figure out for themselves, they follow what they are told the books say. Like most religious leaders, the Islamic holy men tend to preach what is convenient to them. The fact that the religion is Islam isn't of…

"Islam isn't a system of laws" Really ? Have you ever -even once- asked a muslim this ? Seriously ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

Sharia is the laws OF Islam. Sharia is not equal to Islam. Set A contains set B. Set A is not equal to set B. You might as well say that Christianity is the ten commandments, Judaism is the halakhah and Atheism is the American Atheists’ conference code of conduct.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#125

Post by hachiya »

timje1 wrote: post #82
nikatwork wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point (and I am being serious) is that these worker abuses seem to be the result of a complete lack of government regulations surrounding the labor force. However you do raise a good point, in this situation the workers are not free to pick up and leave, which invalidates it as an argument against free market advocation. I concede the discussion to you good sir.

'you raise a good point' .. 'I concede the discussion to you good sir'. Thank you for restoring my faith in internet based discussion. (With the exception of the gender assumption, which I'll overlook)

You assumed his profile wasn't clicked on and the URL viewed, identifying him as male. And even if it weren't, the majority of people here are males, and even more so those that talk here about politics. So it would be a perfectly logical assumption to make.

You ruined the spirit of your reply.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#126

Post by flumbaps »

cmdkeen wrote: post #90
polymatter wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No religion doesn't have something that Western society doesn't have moral difficulty with. Christianity has a load of crap about stoning people, homophobia and subjugation of women for a start. Also includes God sanctioned rape and murder of non-Christians. Leviticus, Exodus and Deuteronomy is full of that crap.

Except Christianity broadly doesn't believe in the Bible being the literal word of God and thus all of those rules applying now - and no country accepts it as their view of Christianity. Biblical infallibility is a modern, revivalist concept. Even during the good old days of the Mediaeval Church no-one stoned adulterers. No Christian country has laws stoning people on the basis of "it's in the Bible". However it is t…

Yeah, but during medieval and early modern times the church tortured and killed heretics and supposed witches. There isn't even anything in the Bible about doing that. Oppressive theocratic regimes aren't caused by the religious texts they interpret. The Turkish people have a very tolerant culture, despite being an Islamic nation.

The fact is, when a set of beliefs is used as a foundation for nation building, it usually gets twisted over time to create an oppressive regime. Think about the rhetoric of Communism, how explicit that is about equality and fairness, and how well that turned out. It is not amazing that Islamic nations are shitty places to live. What is amazing is that secular, democratic, capitalist nations are quite nice places to live.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#127

Post by DanBC »

dm8 wrote: post #39

On a side note, is there anyway we can donate money to his family. ~ $1500 with 36% interest is lot of money for his poor Nepalese family and I doubt they will be able to repay that debt. I guess they will have to work rest of their life just to repay money. I'd be up for donating some money to their family. How do I do it?

Is buying people out of slavery a good idea, or does it just keep more people in slavery?

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#128

Post by rehack »

waps wrote: post #112
aldous wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A valuable point worth noting in relation to this is the fact that Jesus, in the new testament, specifically dismisses such practices as stoning: John 8:7. “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/let_him_who_is_without_sin_cas... It is one of the central tenets of Christian faith that one should not judge others. Quotes attributed to Jesus explicitly state…

Funny that you mention that. You see islam has that exact story in it's holy books, but with a slightly different outcome : Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 60 :: Hadith 79 "The Jews brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from among them who had committed illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet said to them, "How do you usually punish the one amongst you who has committed illegal sexual intercourse?" They replied, "We b…

>If any muslim can answer this question : who was the most moral person in this story. The prophet or the adulterer ?

I doubt you will find any Muslims here who profess 100% faith to the tenets of Islam. Wrong place to ask, I think. More likely you will find cultural Muslims over here. And they themselves struggle with doubts and what-good-to-pick from religion, like their other religion counter parts.

Also its not good to judge some 1400 year old incident with modern day values.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#129

Post by DanBC »

anigbrowl wrote: post #42

This is heartbreaking, but I'm having a hard time seeing the HN angle, except that there was another thread on the same subject earlier today. I suggest this is more suitable fare for Reddit.

While I say that anything can fit on HN I have a hard time with articles like this, because the threads are usually full of hateful idiots bickering about things they have little knowledge of.

What have I learnt from the comments to this submission?

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#130

Post by hrrsn »

aestra wrote: post #120
bayesianhorse wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been a tough journey of about 200 years to eliminate most of this thinking in the west. It's certainly hard to watch this process unfold in other countries. The process is certainly faster than it was in the west but still excruciatingly slow.

This thinking hasn't been eliminated in the West.

It's still hard for most people to understand this.
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