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AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

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Re: AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

#41

Post by simoncion »

ahomescu1 wrote: post #22

My first thought when I saw the slides, especially the "cross-platform part", was "yay, no more DirectX!!!". This might mean that we're finally going to have AAA games on Linux too (DirectX was a big obstacle to that).

Both old and new AAA games are on Linux today. Tribes 2, Descent: Freespace, Brutal Legend, Psychonauts, Natural Selection 2, HL2, TF2, Unreal Tournament 2004, the X3 series... etc., etc., etc.

Unless Mantle is a shedload easier to work with than OpenGL 3.x, I don't see it speeding the development of the Linux Unreal Engine 4 port. ;)

Re: AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

#42

Post by simoncion »

zanny wrote: post #25
binarycrusader wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Follow some of the top-end OpenGL developers on Twitter sometime; you'll change your tune quickly. There's a significant amount of overhead in the existing OpenGL API, which currently can only be mitigated somewhat through vendor-specific extensions. But extensions alone aren't sufficient to address some of the serious issues that the OpenGL API has today. OpenGL forces you to maintain a tremendous amount of state in…

This. I'm hoping Mantle is to OGL what Mir was to Wayland - not a supplicant, but a kick in the rear to get their act in gear.

It was my understanding that those involved with or in the know about both Wayland and Mir felt that Mir is a project in a very early state of development [0][1] that was started for the wrong reasons [2]. Could you point me to a knowledgeable person who doesn't work for Canonical who mentions that some significant good idea(s) from Mir worked their way into Wayland? :)

[0] http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/26254.html [1] http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/27327.html [2] http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/05/mir-in-kubuntu...

Re: AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

#43

Post by fafner »

This could be an opportunity for AMD considering they ship the GPU for both the new XBox and PS4 and Wii U. But Carmack suspects that MS and Sony won't like it because it could boost Steambox.

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383047595725037568

> AMD has an interesting opportunity with Mantle because of their dual console wins, but I doubt Sony and MS will be very helpful.

and

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383051142755663872

> Considering the boost Mantle could give to a steambox, MS and Sony may wind up being downright hostile to it.

Re: AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

#44

Post by thelinked »

qznc wrote: post #37
binarycrusader wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Follow some of the top-end OpenGL developers on Twitter sometime; you'll change your tune quickly. There's a significant amount of overhead in the existing OpenGL API, which currently can only be mitigated somewhat through vendor-specific extensions. But extensions alone aren't sufficient to address some of the serious issues that the OpenGL API has today. OpenGL forces you to maintain a tremendous amount of state in…

Who are those "top-end OpenGL developers on Twitter"? Maybe some blogs you can recommend?

Here are some blogs. http://hacksoflife.blogspot.com/ http://fgiesen.wordpress.com/ http://www.g-truc.net/

Re: AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

#45

Post by Jare »

Jare wrote: post #16

A few relevant notes from AMD's Twitter at @AMDRadeon: - Collaboration between AMD and DICE/EA - The Frostbite engine, used in Battlefield 4, "will use "Mantle" low-level API instead of DX11 on compatible Radeon GPUs." - "Mantle enables 9x more draw calls per second than any other APIs by reducing CPU overhead - works with all GCN GPUs!"

And Nick from AMD: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1788711&postcount=2...

Mantle is the direct result of a number of AAA game developers asking us for something like this because of several constraints they're experiencing with existing PC graphics APIs. Those developers want to get closer to the metal and able to achieve more with the GPU(s) on their PC without the API getting in the way of this effort. "More with more" is the term used by Raja and it couldn't be more spot on. AMD listened to developer feedback and entered this venture with Johan Andersson leading the charge. Johan has a passion for writing efficient code that can allow him to accomplish his technical vision and Mantle exists to serve this purpose.

Mantle is not for every developer. It is a low-level graphics API designed to drive the GPU in the most efficient manner. This level of access requires a bit more development effort than existing APIs to reap the rewards it provides.

AMD remains committed to support DirectX and OpenGL and to keep optimizing our drivers for those APIs. Mantle is an option that some developers may choose, but it does not affect those that wish to keep using existing APIs.

Some technical concerns are mentioned on this thread. The Mantle API has been in design and development for more than 2 years and rest assured we've had some time to think about the best way to address those (and loads of others).

More technical details about Mantle will be revealed in due course. Johan is a keynote speaker at the AMD Developer Summit (11-14 November, San Jose).

Nick - Gaming Engineering Manager, AMD

Re: AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

#46

Post by Narishma »

teamonkey wrote: post #28
ahomescu1 wrote: post #22

My first thought when I saw the slides, especially the "cross-platform part", was "yay, no more DirectX!!!". This might mean that we're finally going to have AAA games on Linux too (DirectX was a big obstacle to that).

Mantle still doesn't solve input, audio, and a number of other services that DirectX provides in a unified way. Also, potentially AMD only, which has a smaller share than both Intel and nVidia.

All those other DirectX parts have been deprecated for a long time now. The only thing still being used is Direct3D.

Re: AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

#47

Post by ahomescu1 »

simoncion wrote: post #41
ahomescu1 wrote: post #22

My first thought when I saw the slides, especially the "cross-platform part", was "yay, no more DirectX!!!". This might mean that we're finally going to have AAA games on Linux too (DirectX was a big obstacle to that).

Both old and new AAA games are on Linux today . Tribes 2, Descent: Freespace, Brutal Legend, Psychonauts, Natural Selection 2, HL2, TF2, Unreal Tournament 2004, the X3 series... etc., etc., etc. Unless Mantle is a shedload easier to work with than OpenGL 3.x, I don't see it speeding the development of the Linux Unreal Engine 4 port. ;)

Bioshock Infinite? Starcraft 2? GTA V? Diablo 3? Skyrim? (I'm talking about native ports, not Wine) Some of those you mentioned are Valve games, and they've been porting the games to Linux because of SteamOS.

Re: AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

#48

Post by simoncion »

ahomescu1 wrote: post #47
simoncion wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both old and new AAA games are on Linux today . Tribes 2, Descent: Freespace, Brutal Legend, Psychonauts, Natural Selection 2, HL2, TF2, Unreal Tournament 2004, the X3 series... etc., etc., etc. Unless Mantle is a shedload easier to work with than OpenGL 3.x, I don't see it speeding the development of the Linux Unreal Engine 4 port. ;)

Bioshock Infinite? Starcraft 2? GTA V? Diablo 3? Skyrim? (I'm talking about native ports, not Wine) Some of those you mentioned are Valve games, and they've been porting the games to Linux because of SteamOS.

I'm still not convinced that Mantle will be a significant motivator for AAA game producers to port to Linux. After all, if an "easier" way to get your game out the door was all that it took, wouldn't we have seen a bunch of Unreal Engine games on Linux back in 2004?

Can you convince me that Mantle is a substantially better or easier way of doing graphics programming than modern OpenGL?

Re: AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

#49

Post by binarycrusader »

qznc wrote: post #37
binarycrusader wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Follow some of the top-end OpenGL developers on Twitter sometime; you'll change your tune quickly. There's a significant amount of overhead in the existing OpenGL API, which currently can only be mitigated somewhat through vendor-specific extensions. But extensions alone aren't sufficient to address some of the serious issues that the OpenGL API has today. OpenGL forces you to maintain a tremendous amount of state in…

Who are those "top-end OpenGL developers on Twitter"? Maybe some blogs you can recommend?

Here are some of the graphics people I follow on Twitter and whom I personally consider experts in the field:

Fabian Giesen: https://twtter.com/rygorous http://fgiesen.wordpress.com/ -- RAD Game Tools

Sean Barrett: https://twitter.com/nothings -- ex-Looking Glass, now RAD Game Tools

Brian Hook: https://twitter.com/GrumpyHook -- ex-id Software, now RAD Game Tools

Romain Guy: https://twitter.com/romainguy -- Google (Android)

John Carmack: https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack -- id Software Founder / Occulus VR CTO

Johan Andersson: https://twitter.com/repi -- Technical Director on Frostbite Engine at DICE (Battlefield Games)

Dave Moore: https://twitter.com/dmmfix -- RAD Game Tools

Tom Forsyth: https://twitter.com/tom_forsyth -- ex-Valve (?), ex-Intel, now at Occulus

Graham Sellers: https://twitter.com/grahamsellers -- AMD

Matthäus G. Chajdas: https://twitter.com/NIV_Anteru

Christophe Riccio: https://twitter.com/g_truc -- ex-Imagination Technologies, ex-AMD ?, now indie?

Robert Menzel: https://twitter.com/renderpipeline

Morgan McGuire: https://twitter.com/CasualEffects

Re: AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative

#50

Post by ahomescu1 »

simoncion wrote: post #48
ahomescu1 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bioshock Infinite? Starcraft 2? GTA V? Diablo 3? Skyrim? (I'm talking about native ports, not Wine) Some of those you mentioned are Valve games, and they've been porting the games to Linux because of SteamOS.

I'm still not convinced that Mantle will be a significant motivator for AAA game producers to port to Linux. After all, if an "easier" way to get your game out the door was all that it took, wouldn't we have seen a bunch of Unreal Engine games on Linux back in 2004? Can you convince me that Mantle is a substantially better or easier way of doing graphics programming than modern OpenGL?

Not sure. I'm surprised myself that there aren't more OpenGL games. One possibility is that OpenGL is too bloated/complicated (which Mantle would fix), but I don't know enough about OpenGL to state that with certainty.
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