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Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#131

Post by moogleii »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #32
moogleii wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but who deems and verifies if someone is a member of an enemy force? In traditional war, a soldier would have a uniform, and there are laws against killing non-uniformed peeps. In asymmetrical warfare, it's obviously much harder to ID legitimate targets. The problem isn't whether or not the government should be killing known enemies of the state, it's that the executive branch is unilaterally deciding and confi…

US civilian courts have no jurisdiction outside of US borders, and again, why would such a requirement need to be met for US citizens but not foreigners? Everyone is afforded the same rights (equality under the law). In a war, there is no legal need to justify killings in front of a judge. This is all just legally speaking, however. Practically, I think that Obama would be very wise to seek approval from a panel of j…

In a traditional war, legality has already been met via law (either through a formal declaration of war or through the limited war powers given to the executive). There is no need to justify in front of a judge, because the rights have already been granted. But again, you can only kill certain people, also defined by law. You can't just start carpet bombing cities anymore, otherwise, yes, you may very well find yourself in front of a judge (and presumably these cities would consist of foreigners, so yes, there would be a requirement).

US courts may not have jurisdiction abroad, but the executor of actions is presumably or will presumably be on American soil at some point.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#132

Post by vdaniuk »

eitland wrote: post #108
vdaniuk wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would very eager to hear about terrorist acts committed by people who identify as atheist.

A B Breivik at least claimed not to be a personal believer in Christianity. Also his notes leave little doubt that he didn't practice Christianity. And he sure isn't a Muslim.

He doesnt identify as atheist per se and his statements on religion are ambiguous. He says, for example, that he prayed to God during attack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#135

Post by consonants »

grey-area wrote: post #64
yapcguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points except for... > an undefined and secret enemy Just this month alone... - Islamic terrorists gun down over 60 people in a shopping mall in Kenya. - Islamic terrorists blow up over 70 people in a church in Pakistan. - Islamic terrorists massacre over 160 travelers in Nigeria. - Islamic terrorists take hundreds hostage in a coastal city in the Philippines.

Islamic terrorists is not a defined enemy; many people are Islamic, and any of them could be terrorists. The list of who is considered a terrorist is secret and we are not privy to which people or even organisations are considered enemies in this war on terror. The US is also frequently attacked by Christian terrorists. Terror aims to scare a population, but more importantly to drive a wedge between a government and…

Yup, it's been stated over and over by terrorist organizations that this is one of their intended goals. Thinking about where we were as a country around the time of the 1998 embassy bombings and where we are today would be jarring if I wasn't so desensitized to it.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#136

Post by yapcguy »

steve19 wrote: post #87
yapcguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points except for... > an undefined and secret enemy Just this month alone... - Islamic terrorists gun down over 60 people in a shopping mall in Kenya. - Islamic terrorists blow up over 70 people in a church in Pakistan. - Islamic terrorists massacre over 160 travelers in Nigeria. - Islamic terrorists take hundreds hostage in a coastal city in the Philippines.

Wow, this guy got downvoted fast and unfairly in my opinion. He stated a fact. I don't know what the Nigeria attack is, but in the three other attacks he listed the enemy is known and in two of those attacks they wore uniforms. Drones have been used against at least one of those groups. I think people don't like the term "Islamic" being used, but they were done by groups claiming to be Islamic, and reported in the me…

http://allafrica.com/stories/201309200714.html

>"Heavily armed insurgents laid siege on Benisheik, Kaga Local Government Area on Tuesday evening, killing people and setting buildings ablaze.

They also blocked the Maiduguri-Damaturu highway, three kilometers away from the town, sorting out and slaughtering dozens of travelers.

Apart from the 142 travellers, also killed in the attack were 2 soldiers, 3 policemen and 14 villagers,bringing the total death toll to 161."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram

>"an Islamic jihadist militant terrorist organisation based in the northeast of Nigeria[4] north Cameroon and Niger.[5][6][7][8] It is an Islamist movement which strongly opposes non-Sharia legal systems, and what they deem "Westernization." Founded by Mohammed Yusuf in 2001,[9] the organisation seeks to establish sharia law in the country."

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#137

Post by yapcguy »

joshuaellinger wrote: post #119
steve19 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, this guy got downvoted fast and unfairly in my opinion. He stated a fact. I don't know what the Nigeria attack is, but in the three other attacks he listed the enemy is known and in two of those attacks they wore uniforms. Drones have been used against at least one of those groups. I think people don't like the term "Islamic" being used, but they were done by groups claiming to be Islamic, and reported in the me…

Replace the word "Islamic" with "Poor and Black/Brown" and you've selected the same group of people. Imagine being in Northern Ireland 20 years ago and stating the fact that all of the terrorist attackers were performed by "Catholics". Or in the Deep South 40 years ago (or today) and saying that all of the people charged with stealing are "Black". Or that most of the people with AIDS are "Gay". Unfortunately, the bla…

> Pretending that it is tied to religion is just weakly hidden fear-of-the-other.

The killers are quoting from religious text and openly declare they are fighting a religious war.

If there were only one or two people doing this, you could claim they were mentally ill, but you have thousands of people doing this, all over the world.

You can't tar everybody with the same brush, but it's obvious that religion is part of the problem.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#138

Post by lmm »

jryle70 wrote: post #110
lmm wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then either you go to war - actual, declared war - with that country, or you put up with it.

So what do you think if US wages war against Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Egypt, Somalia, Sudan, Lybia, at the same time? As a US citizen, do you approve of that? How about the US public?

Ok, I was simplifying; diplomatic sanctions are an option, and, I think, the appropriate way to handle the case of "this country is generally ok apart from harbouring some international criminals.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#139

Post by [deleted] »

vdaniuk wrote: post #102
colinb wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly not. But those were a while back. And the people who seem to be doing the most killing of civilians these days identify themselves as muslims. Yes, I understand that most, perhaps very nearly all muslims don't want anything to do with these nut-jobs. However, if you're looking for the group of people most likely to be in to this kind of thing _right now_, then it seems that the nearest crazy-horse mosque migh…

Liberal democracies dont win when people are being killed without a trial. Government organizations that produce a visage of a liberal democracies win and they are two very different things.

[deleted]

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#140

Post by yapcguy »

jrockway wrote: post #71
yapcguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points except for... > an undefined and secret enemy Just this month alone... - Islamic terrorists gun down over 60 people in a shopping mall in Kenya. - Islamic terrorists blow up over 70 people in a church in Pakistan. - Islamic terrorists massacre over 160 travelers in Nigeria. - Islamic terrorists take hundreds hostage in a coastal city in the Philippines.

Islamic terrorists sent mail bombs to a bunch of scientists, bombed the Olympics in Atlanta, and destroyed that federal building in Oklahoma City, too, right?

You've picked out data points in the USA.

Check out what's going on in Burma, Thailand and the Philippines.

Step back and look at events around the world, you'll see a clear pattern.

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