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Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#11

Post by moogleii »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #2

In the US, laws against assassination and extrajudicial killing make no distinction between American citizens and others: Foreigners have the exact same protections as citizens. This goes for the Bill of Rights as well. (Aside, this explains why the NSA is only "supposed" to spy outside of the US. Wether the target is a citizen or not is technically irrelevant on this particular point) If you accept that the US is in…

True, but who deems and verifies if someone is a member of an enemy force? In traditional war, a soldier would have a uniform, and there are laws against killing non-uniformed peeps. In asymmetrical warfare, it's obviously much harder to ID legitimate targets. The problem isn't whether or not the government should be killing known enemies of the state, it's that the executive branch is unilaterally deciding and confirming who is an enemy of the state.

The worst case scenario message being sent is that if I or a fellow American steps outside our land, the executive can decide to blow us away, based on evidence they provide. Judge, jury, and executioner. Literally. But it doesn't really matter if the executive provides a photo of an American holding an AK-47, a court needs to decide if the citizen is a traitor or not (and i'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they'd provide at least that much evidence, which ,actually, legally, I would think still isn't much).

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#13

Post by phy6 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #9
miles wrote: post #4

For those who regularly ask why these stories appear on HN: The president's underlings compile their proposed lists of who should be executed, and the president - at a charming weekly event dubbed by White House aides as "Terror Tuesday" - then chooses from "baseball cards" and decrees in total secrecy who should die. The power of accuser, prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner are all consolidated in this one man,…

I am in full agreement, but I have to ask, why now? This hasn't been news for years.

Why now? Because we elected Change, and we're waiting for it. The question should be "Why NOT now?". Of all times, when the most vocal of Americans enjoy a popular President, why wait until the tide changes to press for the change we all see is needed?

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#14

Post by tikhonj »

r0h1n wrote: post #8
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #2

In the US, laws against assassination and extrajudicial killing make no distinction between American citizens and others: Foreigners have the exact same protections as citizens. This goes for the Bill of Rights as well. (Aside, this explains why the NSA is only "supposed" to spy outside of the US. Wether the target is a citizen or not is technically irrelevant on this particular point) If you accept that the US is in…

I think you're missing the main point: > the memo isn't justifying the due-process-free execution of senior al-Qaida leaders who pose an imminent threat to the US. It is justifying the due-process-free execution of people secretly accused by the president and his underlings, with no due process, of being that. The distinction between (a) government accusations and (b) proof of guilt is central to every free society,…

No, he is not missing the main point. Rather, he is addressing part of the issue. All his post says is that it does not--and should not--matter whether the person in question is an American citizen. This is a fact which stands regardless of your opinion on the rest of the problem, and so it makes sense not to address that.

In more explicit terms: if you believe this sort of extrajudicial killing is illegal (which many, including me, do), you should believe it illegal for citizens and non-citizens alike. Similarly, if you believe it legal, it should still be legal for both citizen and non-citizens.

Not having citizenship does not magically make it fine to kill you and, similarly, having citizenship does not protect you if you are an enemy combatant.

Since the same logic applies in both cases, it's completely independent of the rest of the issue and should not be unnecessarily conflated.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#15

Post by deathanatos »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #2

In the US, laws against assassination and extrajudicial killing make no distinction between American citizens and others: Foreigners have the exact same protections as citizens. This goes for the Bill of Rights as well. (Aside, this explains why the NSA is only "supposed" to spy outside of the US. Wether the target is a citizen or not is technically irrelevant on this particular point) If you accept that the US is in…

> If you accept that the US is in a war with Al Qaeda

Not just Al Quaeda, as the article notes:

> the title itself: "Lawfulness of a Lethal Operation Directed Against a US Citizen Who is a Senior Operational Leader of al-Qaida or An Associated Force."

"An Associated Force." Don't forget, we're at war with “Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and their associated forces.”[1] Also,

> At a hearing in May, Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., asked the Defense Department to provide him with a current list of Al Qaeda affiliates.

> The Pentagon responded – but Levin’s office told ProPublica they aren’t allowed to share it.

> “…we have classified the list,” said the spokesman, Lt. Col. Jim Gregory.

> During the May hearing, Michael Sheehan, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Special Operations and Low-Intensity Conflict, said he was “not sure there is a list per se.” Describing terrorist groups as “murky” and “shifting,” he said, “it would be difficult for the Congress to get involved in trying to track the designation of which are the affiliate forces” of Al Qaeda.

[1]: http://www.propublica.org/article/who-are-we-at-war-with-tha... (This was on HN about two months ago, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6117846 )

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#16

Post by tikhonj »

pstack wrote: post #5
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #2

In the US, laws against assassination and extrajudicial killing make no distinction between American citizens and others: Foreigners have the exact same protections as citizens. This goes for the Bill of Rights as well. (Aside, this explains why the NSA is only "supposed" to spy outside of the US. Wether the target is a citizen or not is technically irrelevant on this particular point) If you accept that the US is in…

That doesn't line up with the Constitution, which clearly states what the US Government can do (I know, people commonly mistake the Constitution for a list of rights for the people rather than a list of exceptions for the government as to how they may or may not act). The Constitution grants the right to due process for citizens. It doesn't place a limit on where that citizen is currently resided. Killing someone in…

Okay, let's agree with your premise. Then why is it only absurd in the case of US citizens? After all, the constitution unequivocally applies to everyone in the US. Even me!

So why should the fact that somebody is far away change any of that?

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#17

Post by tikhonj »

scrabble wrote: post #6
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #2

In the US, laws against assassination and extrajudicial killing make no distinction between American citizens and others: Foreigners have the exact same protections as citizens. This goes for the Bill of Rights as well. (Aside, this explains why the NSA is only "supposed" to spy outside of the US. Wether the target is a citizen or not is technically irrelevant on this particular point) If you accept that the US is in…

If you accept that the US is in a war with Al Qaeda And if you no longer accept this as a valid justification for all of the actions that have followed the 9/11 attack?

Then you should take the position that assassinating Al Quaeda members is wrong (and illegal). Regardless of citizenship.

Which is entirely consistent with the parent's post.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#18

Post by wiredfool »

pstack wrote: post #5
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #2

In the US, laws against assassination and extrajudicial killing make no distinction between American citizens and others: Foreigners have the exact same protections as citizens. This goes for the Bill of Rights as well. (Aside, this explains why the NSA is only "supposed" to spy outside of the US. Wether the target is a citizen or not is technically irrelevant on this particular point) If you accept that the US is in…

That doesn't line up with the Constitution, which clearly states what the US Government can do (I know, people commonly mistake the Constitution for a list of rights for the people rather than a list of exceptions for the government as to how they may or may not act). The Constitution grants the right to due process for citizens. It doesn't place a limit on where that citizen is currently resided. Killing someone in…

It's not just citizens.

  No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or 
  otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or 
  indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in 
  the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in 
  actual service in time of War or public danger; nor 
  shall any person be subject for the same offence to be 
  twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be 
  compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against 
  himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, 
  without due process of law; nor shall private property be 
  taken for public use, without just compensation.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#19

Post by frank_boyd »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #9
miles wrote: post #4

For those who regularly ask why these stories appear on HN: The president's underlings compile their proposed lists of who should be executed, and the president - at a charming weekly event dubbed by White House aides as "Terror Tuesday" - then chooses from "baseball cards" and decrees in total secrecy who should die. The power of accuser, prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner are all consolidated in this one man,…

I am in full agreement, but I have to ask, why now? This hasn't been news for years.

It's not "why now?", it's "why still not?".

If the country that plays the role of the World's police becomes/is corrupt (to that degree), then there is no hope for the World.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#20

Post by alexqgb »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #9
miles wrote: post #4

For those who regularly ask why these stories appear on HN: The president's underlings compile their proposed lists of who should be executed, and the president - at a charming weekly event dubbed by White House aides as "Terror Tuesday" - then chooses from "baseball cards" and decrees in total secrecy who should die. The power of accuser, prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner are all consolidated in this one man,…

I am in full agreement, but I have to ask, why now? This hasn't been news for years.

Here's what's happening: intelligent people are having a desperately needed conversation about the full spectrum of related problems having to do with absolutely terrifying assertions of extra-judicial executive power.

This is relevant. That's why it's part of the conversation.

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