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Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#81

Post by colinb »

ZoFreX wrote: post #76
yapcguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points except for... > an undefined and secret enemy Just this month alone... - Islamic terrorists gun down over 60 people in a shopping mall in Kenya. - Islamic terrorists blow up over 70 people in a church in Pakistan. - Islamic terrorists massacre over 160 travelers in Nigeria. - Islamic terrorists take hundreds hostage in a coastal city in the Philippines.

I don't know the global stats, but in Europe, 0.5% of terrorist attacks are committed by people who identify as Muslim. Christians and atheists commit way more.

0.5% ? Really? Can you back that up with a reference please.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#82

Post by gadders »

dingaling wrote: post #79
gadders wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the enemy refuses to wear a uniform? Do we just let them go?

> If the enemy refuses to wear a uniform? Do we just let them go? The British policy on this, under which I grew up, was to treat such a scenario as a 'police action' wherein military presence was used to bring the situation to a point where the police could intervene. Certainly troops operated checkpoints, patrolled streets and operated intelligence gathering, but all actions were in assistance to the constabulary.…

And if the terrorists are in a country which does not want to launch military action against the bad actors within their borders?

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#83

Post by [deleted] »

miles wrote: post #4

For those who regularly ask why these stories appear on HN: The president's underlings compile their proposed lists of who should be executed, and the president - at a charming weekly event dubbed by White House aides as "Terror Tuesday" - then chooses from "baseball cards" and decrees in total secrecy who should die. The power of accuser, prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner are all consolidated in this one man,…

[deleted]

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#84

Post by unclebucknasty »

hrasyid wrote: post #30

How to respond to this kind of argument: We don't need to give "due process" to enemy soldiers before we kill them. How are al-Qaeda members different?

Your question itself falls victim to one of the biggest fallacies highlighted by this article: that is, you accept that government accusation (e.g. that someone is an al-Qaeda member) is tantamount to guilt.

Establishing the truth of such an accusation is the very objective of due process. Thus, your question is internally inconsistent and circular. It literally cannot be answered.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#85

Post by Shivetya »

miles wrote: post #4

For those who regularly ask why these stories appear on HN: The president's underlings compile their proposed lists of who should be executed, and the president - at a charming weekly event dubbed by White House aides as "Terror Tuesday" - then chooses from "baseball cards" and decrees in total secrecy who should die. The power of accuser, prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner are all consolidated in this one man,…

Where is the press, where are the protesters?

Its not hard to understand why it does not change. Its sad that criticism can be blunted by the fear of being labeled.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#86

Post by colinb »

jrockway wrote: post #71
yapcguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points except for... > an undefined and secret enemy Just this month alone... - Islamic terrorists gun down over 60 people in a shopping mall in Kenya. - Islamic terrorists blow up over 70 people in a church in Pakistan. - Islamic terrorists massacre over 160 travelers in Nigeria. - Islamic terrorists take hundreds hostage in a coastal city in the Philippines.

Islamic terrorists sent mail bombs to a bunch of scientists, bombed the Olympics in Atlanta, and destroyed that federal building in Oklahoma City, too, right?

Clearly not. But those were a while back. And the people who seem to be doing the most killing of civilians these days identify themselves as muslims.

Yes, I understand that most, perhaps very nearly all muslims don't want anything to do with these nut-jobs. However, if you're looking for the group of people most likely to be in to this kind of thing _right now_, then it seems that the nearest crazy-horse mosque might be the place to go. No, not the mosque around the corner from you right now [for most values of 'you'], but such places exist, and its right for law enforcement to investigate them.

Don't misunderstand me. Killing civilians with secret orders via remotely piloted drones, with no trial, no public investigation and no accountability is broken. Obama has certainly given me hope. Just as Bush did before him. I _hope_ that the next holder of office is a little more responsible.

But, there is a war. And I'd rather the liberal democracies won it. [hint - if the nut-jobs who attached the shopping mall in Nairobi had their way, my children and I would be executed in a flash]

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#87

Post by steve19 »

yapcguy wrote: post #61
grey-area wrote: post #47

Let's consider a specific example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-kil... The missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen...The attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., said only that Abdulrahman was not “specifically targeted,” raising more questions than he answered. The…

Good points except for... > an undefined and secret enemy Just this month alone... - Islamic terrorists gun down over 60 people in a shopping mall in Kenya. - Islamic terrorists blow up over 70 people in a church in Pakistan. - Islamic terrorists massacre over 160 travelers in Nigeria. - Islamic terrorists take hundreds hostage in a coastal city in the Philippines.

Wow, this guy got downvoted fast and unfairly in my opinion. He stated a fact.

I don't know what the Nigeria attack is, but in the three other attacks he listed the enemy is known and in two of those attacks they wore uniforms. Drones have been used against at least one of those groups.

I think people don't like the term "Islamic" being used, but they were done by groups claiming to be Islamic, and reported in the media as Islamic.

I am tired of the constant straw man arguments "but we have killed more people", "but christians are also terrorists" etc. Debate the issue at hand instead. Who are our enemy (if anyone) and how do we deal with them?

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#89

Post by dkersten »

grey-area wrote: post #47

Let's consider a specific example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-kil... The missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen...The attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., said only that Abdulrahman was not “specifically targeted,” raising more questions than he answered. The…

Its almost like the Obama administration are the real terrorists.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#90

Post by lmm »

gadders wrote: post #82
dingaling wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the enemy refuses to wear a uniform? Do we just let them go? The British policy on this, under which I grew up, was to treat such a scenario as a 'police action' wherein military presence was used to bring the situation to a point where the police could intervene. Certainly troops operated checkpoints, patrolled streets and operated intelligence gathering, but all actions were in assistance to the constabulary.…

And if the terrorists are in a country which does not want to launch military action against the bad actors within their borders?

Then either you go to war - actual, declared war - with that country, or you put up with it.
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