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The Story of Engineering Education in India

jnaapti.com

21–30 of 64 posts

Re: The Story of Engineering Education in India

#21
One of my colleagues was taking an interview of a potential candidate who listed "Python" as a core programming language. This is similar to most interviews I've been part of. Here's how it went -

Interviewer : Name some data structures in Python Interviewee : Same as C, C++

Interviewer : Can you name some specific data structures? For example, have you heard about lists? Interviewee : I haven't heard about lists in Python

Interviewer : What is the key difference between Python and C? Interviewee : Python requires indentation, C doesn't.

That was the final straw in my colleague's patience.

Re: The Story of Engineering Education in India

#22
post #17
post #12

Having interviewed 100+ candidates in past 2 years for my own startup and a similar number before in my previous job, I completely understand what the author is trying to say. Believe me when I say that 90% of my interviews simply stop at the first question (Can you write a function in C which given an integer array and its size as arguments, returns the number of zeros in an array?). My interview then turns in a sma…

I'm in the process of converting my team of 50ish programmers in Chennai into a DevOps and "legacy apps support" org because finding people with the necessary current skills is proving too difficult. And by "current" I'm talking basic stuff like javascript competency, an understanding of what MVC is (versus dragging toolbox controls onto a webform and writing a couple lines of databinding), and the impossibility of h…

As a person who started one of chennai's first product development org. in the mid 90's, let me add my two cents here:

1) Hire people for their interest in programming, their core problem solving ability and the fun they have with the process.

There are lots of such people, just learn to look beyond what everyone else does. For instance, i once hired a person who could not speak much english, and who did a BA or something like that. He, later on, turned out to be one of the stars of the organization writing a core part of a VoIP solution.

2) Invest in long-term training. By that, i mean don't hire some crappy institute to come and train your people. Here from experienced folks in other organizations to come in over the weeke-end or other timings to help your team.

I remember having to train almost every member of my team in assembly, c, win16 and later on win32 among others. Some of my team members then went on to train professors in IIT, chennai. :-)

3) Mentor your team members. Show interest in them beyond what they can deliver today. Build good relationships with them and help them, both technically and otherwise. When they see you sincerely reaching out to them, they will do the same.

4) Be patient with people. If they know zilch, be frank with them and let them know that they are currently not contributing anything to the organization. However also lay out a plan for them, along with HR, to bring them up to speed in core areas; viz problem-solving, algorithm design, data structures etc Don't allow them to waste time on fancy courses from idiotic institutes. Make your senior programmers take classes some of the time. That's also part of their job.

Re: The Story of Engineering Education in India

#23

One of my colleagues was taking an interview of a potential candidate who listed "Python" as a core programming language. This is similar to most interviews I've been part of. Here's how it went - Interviewer : Name some data structures in Python Interviewee : Same as C, C++ Interviewer : Can you name some specific data structures? For example, have you heard about lists? Interviewee : I haven't heard about lists in…

Why would your colleague waste time on further questions when the interviewee answered that he hasn't heard of lists in python?

btw Python's indentation requirement is a difference with C though whether it's a key difference or not is debatable.

Re: The Story of Engineering Education in India

#24
post #2

Your post has a lot of gems, but you also misunderstand a lot about what is going on in Indian society. I am not surprised, not a least bit. >>I am sorry to say this, but parents come with an “old generation” mindset ... Because they think that if he gets a job he has settled in life ... Unfortunately, what they don’t realize is that there is no such thing as “settling” in IT jobs. They come with a very correct minds…

//Seats denied to general category students due to reservations// I mostly agree with the rest of your post, but bundling the reservation system among corruptions is naive and mischievous. Reservations for the low caste were gained after a long struggle for their social justice.

No it's not.

'naive' and 'mischievous' don't mean what you think they mean, and the author of the parent post did not claim anything of that sort. It's just that your opinions differ and you want to throw some idiotic words at the author's post.

Re: The Story of Engineering Education in India

#26
post #2

Your post has a lot of gems, but you also misunderstand a lot about what is going on in Indian society. I am not surprised, not a least bit. >>I am sorry to say this, but parents come with an “old generation” mindset ... Because they think that if he gets a job he has settled in life ... Unfortunately, what they don’t realize is that there is no such thing as “settling” in IT jobs. They come with a very correct minds…

A 20+ year old with Google at his disposal, has 0 reasons to complain when it education and knowledge these days WRONG Totally Where would a 20 year old learn about a driver code written 15 years back , with no documents? This job would feed him And it is hard.

I call BS on that attitude.

First, the author was making a generic point. Your contribution is to point out some silly exception.

However, if a 20 year old had the driver's code, he can learn to look at the code of similar driver's or failing that learn to read the code, and run them through a kernel-level debugger. If he doesn't know how to do that, there are resources available on the internet to show him how.

Re: The Story of Engineering Education in India

#27
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 20+ year old with Google at his disposal, has 0 reasons to complain when it education and knowledge these days WRONG Totally Where would a 20 year old learn about a driver code written 15 years back , with no documents? This job would feed him And it is hard.

Nobody gets Google search results, For "segfault in driver.c written by rahul rai in 1985" But, they get good enough help on writing device drivers and troubleshooting them. That is all you need, and you have to take it from there. There is nothing like copy-paste if your are solving a new problem. You have to incrementally work your way to a solution. If you think that is not possible for a person, they must rethink…

No.

It also indicates that companies hire people and then throw problems at them without training them or mentoring them or providing adequate tools for them.

Re: The Story of Engineering Education in India

#28
post #9

I am a start up founder as well and I am facing the same problem. Most of freshers applying for the jobs claim to have decent "Java", "SQL" knowledge in their resume. But they cannot even write a simple program that reads and writes to a file. They don't even know that there is something called "Open Source Technology". Absolutely no one has hands on experience with Linux. And they haven't even heard of technologies…

Also blame the students themselves. It really doesn't matter what collages they attended, how poor their teacher was etc.

The internet is the biggest teacher of all. With institutions like Khan Academy and MITx and Google and coursera and other MOOCs, the availability of free knowledge is plentyful for people with an ounce of interest.

And never invest in a person who does not love programming or problem solving. No amount of training can fix a character flaw.

Re: The Story of Engineering Education in India

#29
post #16
post #12

Having interviewed 100+ candidates in past 2 years for my own startup and a similar number before in my previous job, I completely understand what the author is trying to say. Believe me when I say that 90% of my interviews simply stop at the first question (Can you write a function in C which given an integer array and its size as arguments, returns the number of zeros in an array?). My interview then turns in a sma…

Software can have jobs where the work involved is "crank the handle, produce output", but the majority of them do indeed require the ability to solve problems. I interviewed one candidate several years ago, and the question was: "How do you ensure that your program works as intended?". Hoping to get answers like "I write unit tests, integration tests, test scaffolds" or even "I exercise it with different inputs", wha…

I actually blame the people who hire such idiots. Their lack of knowledge is not the problem. Their lack of curiosity is. Their lack of self-motivation is.

Even for "crank the handle, produce output" type of jobs, it's a bad strategy to hire idiots since they will not be doing such jobs for the rest of their lives. Projects change. clients change. Technology changes, and only people with at least a minimal amount of adaptability wlll thrive.

And to answer your generic interview question: By running it. If you probe further, things like unit test coverage, integration test coverage, debugging, seed data etc can come into the picture but that depends on your specific question.

Re: The Story of Engineering Education in India

#30

Let me take another viewpoint where everyone is too biased to the idea that the parents put the clamps on their kids. I am an engineering undergrad and honestly, the kids doing Tier-3 Engineering won't be even slightly better off if they weren't. For the simplest reason, for 90% of people there is a no sense of purpose in life except settling for a 20K income and have a well settled family of four. I see no sign of p…

For the simplest reason, for 90% of people there is a no sense of purpose in life except settling for a 20K income and have a well settled family of four.

FWIW, I see a lot of competent people in the United States with this mindset (different numbers, but the same mindset.) They work hard in college and learn what they're supposed to, and after college they keep up with the technologies required for their work. They are rarely superstar coders, but they are competent and productive. People like that end up exactly where society guides them. In the U.S., the society turns them into valuable professionals; in India, apparently the outcome is not so good.

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