201–210 of 216 posts
Unrelated to the actual post, I have seen that with pages on medium the images load first and then after about 4seconds the text loads. Its a rather long wait for the text to load. Did any one else see that?
That's the typical behavior of pages that use Web Fonts. The text doesn't show until the font has downloaded.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
The statement you objected to was "the competitive culture pressures you into continuing." You vociferously denied the concept - "Hogwash!" - and denied any sense of culpability ("you have no one to blame but yourself"). Now you say that there may be culpability, but that "it won't come close in normal gyms". Thank you for changing your mind! In any case, the evidence presented is that involuntary urination, throwing…
> the competitive culture pressures you into continuing This was referring to CrossFit competitive pressure specifically, not general competitive pressure. I've been involved with CrossFit since 2007 and I've never seen anything close to that level of pressure. You invoked the legal definition of culpability, and if you can't establish that, then my statement "you have no one to blame but yourself" is exactly what yo…
I invoked culpability. There a legal definition, yes, but there's also a moral meaning. I meant to include both, and not limit it to legal.
> TFA doesn't invoke that argument, because that would change the focus to individual trainers rather than CrossFit as an organization
Why would it?
You need only look at the history of consumer protection laws to see counter-examples. Consider the classic "Unsafe at Any Speed". It covers many examples where automotive manufacturers know that certain practices were unsafe, but did not change them, for various reasons. Some were considered unimportant and ignored, others were "too expensive", or bad user interface design, or putting design over engineering.
One chapter was even about how drivers were considered to be the only ones to blame for accidents and injuries. But the manufacturer, more than the car dealer, must share culpability.
I do not believe that what the car companies were doing was illegal, so they were not legally culpable. They certainly were morally culpable, and we passed laws to make those practices be illegal. Now we have much, much safer cars than in the 1950s.
You see this pattern in other consumer protection laws, like in the pharmaceutical industry. If a drug has known serious side-effects, but the company decides to hide it, or doesn't have the systems set up to handle reports about side-effects, then it's the company which is most culpable, and not the doctor who prescribed the drug.
Sound familiar?
Culpability can be shared. I have no problems saying that the person exercising, the trainer, and the organization who licenses the name and training style, may have shared culpability. Even if it isn't illegal.
> that's why gyms have you sign waivers. The waiver informs you in no uncertain terms that this stuff is dangerous.
Ahh, so the car companies should have required people to sign a paper saying "driving is dangerous. I accept all responsibility", and not been forced to change a thing. Great solution!
Three states don't allow liability waivers. Does this mean that CrossFit or any other sports can't exist in those three states? (Since Montana, Louisiana, and Vermont have sports clubs, I conclude the answer is "no.")
I don't think you understand how the law regards liability. Shark attacks are an inherent risk in surfing. Getting hit by a baseball is an inherent risk in playing baseball.
But some things are not inherent risks. If a coach forces the surf team to hit the waves when there's been a shark report, and someone gets attacked by a shark, then that's not an inherent risk. (Eg, once while at the beach the life guards called us out of the water because a helicopter flying by saw a shark in the water.)
Let's look at concussion. More people have had concussions than rhabdomyolysis, so it's easier to find information about it.
See for example, "new research suggests that the medical staffs responsible for protecting college athletes often don't have the authority to do so." ( http://chronicle.com/article/Trainers-Butt-Heads-With/141333... ), which will likely affect an NCAA class-action concussion lawsuit http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jeremy-fowle...
Or there's the tentative NFL settlement, where "The NFL has agreed to spend close to $800 million to diagnose and compensate potentially thousands of retired players who develop dementia and other brain disorders they blame on the violent, bone-crunching collisions that pro football has long celebrated in its highlight reels."
Or the new lawsuit by four ex-NFL players suing "the league and its helmet maker, claiming they hid information about the dangers of brain injury." http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000237961/article/four-...
You want to bet that they signed liability waivers?
Thus, we see that people who are engaged in sports, where there's of course an inherent risk of danger, and where they have signed liability waivers, can still reasonably sue because of other reasons.
And the reason - I am not a lawyer - is likely because at some point it's not an inherent risk, like you think it is, but caused by negligence or even gross and criminal negligence.
Here's what's supposed to happen in a case like this. (In my optimistic world.) CrossFit-the-organization has now heard that there might be a problem. They gather information about the rates of rhabdomyolysis and other severe training problems, while also working to ensure that this purported issue is either not real, or to realize that it is an issue and work to reduce it.
Failure to do so is, in my non-lawyer, pro-consumer viewpoint, gross negligence and therefore not subject to liability waivers, because that information should be available in order for people to make an informed decision.
> TFA was nothing but anecdotes
More correctly, it's epidemological evidence that may or may not indicate a deeper persistent risk. Others have written about the same topic. It appears widely understood that some members view vomiting during a workout as a 'badge of honor', as http://health.yahoo.net/articles/fitness/inside-cult-crossfi... says. This doesn't sound like simple friend-of-a-friend hearsay.
Given persistent "anecdotes" as you call it, coming from what appears to be non-correlated sources, means it's worth investigating. Just like early reports of Pinto rear-end accidents, or of the fatal side-effects of fenfluramine/phentermine, lead to changes. And lawsuits.
That's not to say that early reports are necessarily correct, or even presumptively correct. My point is that if it's correct, then 1) culpability doesn't have to lie only in the person exercising, but also in the trainer and/or the organization, and 2) failure to investigate and possibly rectify this possibility is (or at least should be) negligence in its own right.
Your argument point seem to be that 1) it isn't correct and 2) there are plenty of benefits and must be included. Those are both good points, but only related to the point I was making.
> In my case I got stronger and more fit.
Congratulations. For me it was dancing. About 25 hours per week at my peak, and over the years including salsa, swing, Scottish country dance, Swedish folk dance, Argentinian tango, modern dance, and flamenco.
> I (and many others) believe that the rewards are more than worth the risk
Your logic cannot be used as the basis for a good sense of morality. For one, you haven't established that these are on the same balance scale.
If there is a systemic problem with the current CrossFit training method then it might be that a small change leads to a 50x reduction in rhabdomyolysis rates while not affecting the benefits for people like you. Double-plus-good!
For another, if known risks have been deliberately concealed from you, then you cannot make a proper risk/reward judgement.
And as you pointed out, your observations are subject to survivor bias.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know the article's title calls rhabdo a secret but if you read the article - and the comment at the top of this thread - you'll notice that Glassman and every CrossFit coach I've ever met talks about it all the time. In fact, I bet you can't find one person who does CrossFit who doesn't know what it is.
>>you'll notice that Glassman and every CrossFit coach I've ever met talks about it all the time. Look dude, the problem is not that they don't talk about it. The problem is that they make people do complex exercises in a manner that significantly increases risk of rhabdo and a ton of other injuries despite knowing about those risks . This is irresponsible at best and grossly negligent at worst. There is a way to lif…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah I know a few people who have tried Crossfit and the had to quit because they got hurt within the first month. SLAP tears from excessive kipping pull-ups is another common crossfitter injury. I think they do a lot of exercises that are very dangerous to the shoulder / rotator cuff in general. Back injuries are pretty common too, since proper spinal posture is one of the first things to go out the window when you…
I hear horror stories of injuries too. In the end it's self defeating if you are injured all the time or so exhausted that the overtraining hurts the rest of your life.
TL;DR: I got rhabdo from crossfit last year. My CPK was 100,000 and I spent 5 days in the hospital. I wasn't overweight but I wasn't fit when I got it, and I got it during the first day of a beginner course. Ask me anything. ============================== I did crossfit for a couple of months in 2010 and loved it, but I had to stop since I moved to a new apartment and the gym times wouldn't work with the longer commu…
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This. Mark Rippetoe (he's a popular personality in the powerlifting world) was affiliated with Crossfit in the beginning, mainly doing workshops on demonstrating basic barbell lifts. He liked how Crossfit was, at the time, a welcome antidote to the "Globo-Gym" death grip on fitness. But he has distanced himself from Cross-fit for years now, and has a huge amount of criticism due to the emphasis on high-rep Olympic li…
JPKab, I liked the first part of your response. It was accurate and based on fact. Good stuff. Mark's break from the crossfit community is well documented. And also with good reason. You and others have captured it well - olympic lifts executed at high volume carry significant risks. But the rest of your post is garbage. "Monetizations schemes" and "racket"(s)? Two things here: 1/ Any intelligent person that starts a…
I get the feeling here that you just made up numbers that prove your point. And even then, the numbers are so close (25% higher revenue, which of course ignores the margins you believe to be irrelevant) that I'd be skeptical that one or the other would be clearly more profitable.
Perhaps the reason CrossFit gyms have to charge so much is because there are comparatively few people in the world foolish enough to join a gym that advocates a "fitness" program that is statistically so dangerous.
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Competing is one thing - in that kind of game, winning is often more important than health. But if you just want to get fit, an unfaltering belief in no pain no gain seems to be less than beneficial. > Every exercise/activity has some risks. If anything, I'd say crossfit puts you at risk for other injuries (back, joints, heat exhaustion at competitions, etc.). One of the benefits of team sports (the few that I like t…
I lift regularly, with a focus on powerlifting. I would not say that the risk of injury is "very small."
It is possible and actually is easy. One such example is in Hypertrophy-Specific Training, which utilize week long rest and highly metabolic exercises after rest.
Another example is Westside Barbell Conjugate System, which utilizes rotation of exercises, metabolic exercises and actually forbids athletes going over 85% of 1RPM.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I lift regularly, with a focus on powerlifting. I would not say that the risk of injury is "very small."
You should plan your training to prevent trauma. It is possible and actually is easy. One such example is in Hypertrophy-Specific Training, which utilize week long rest and highly metabolic exercises after rest. Another example is Westside Barbell Conjugate System, which utilizes rotation of exercises, metabolic exercises and actually forbids athletes going over 85% of 1RPM.
To be honest, Crossfit has quite a few dark secrets. This one, though, can kill you. What are crossfit's dark secrets? First and foremost, well, it's terrible. The programming coming from HQ is just plain awful. There are many programs out there now (Outlaw, Competitors WOD, CF Football etc) that fill the gap and actually give decent programming, but the programming from crossfit.com is really, really bad. Did you kn…
I've been CrossFitting for over 6 years, owned an affiliate for 4 years, and founded the largest independent CrossFit-style competition series in the country (as far as I know). This author hasn't been to a well-managed gym or worked with more experienced coaches. The same is likely true of those who get rhabdo. They have exposed themselves to more than their body can handle physically, as a result of poor coaching,…
I've seen some bad coaches, but I've seen a lot more people who are uncoachable and are going to injure themselves in any gym with any workout and any coach. I've never seen anyone vomit, injure themselves, get Rhabdo, pass out, or any of the other things people think are so common in Crossfit. Predictably, Crossfit haters sensationalize, and people who push themselves too hard and regret it tend to angrily blame Crossfit in public instead of themselves.
CrossFit changed my body, my self-image, and a lot of my attitude, but any other gym that's based on fun, positive encouragement from other members doing the same workout at the same time, variety, intensity, and a community of friends would do the same thing.
For the record I rarely "Rx" a workout and I almost always come away from workouts thinking I sandbagged it a little. And yet I'm very happy with my results. Why would I want to push harder and risk injury? I wouldn't. I insist on doing every movement perfectly, pausing or lowering weights or reps if I'm getting tired or winded to the point that my form might be at risk, taking it easy if I've had too little sleep or I'm dehydrated or whatever. I know a lot of people who have a similar philosophy and I admire their sense, not their hard-core-ness.
I don't buy the OP's claim that he got sick from a not-overly-strenuous workout. A Crossfit workout is no different than any other, except that if you overdo it in another style of fitness and get critically ill you don't get attention on Hacker News.
TL;DR - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You can show a guy good form and coach him to be safe but you can't make him be safe if he wants to get hurt.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the competitive culture pressures you into continuing This was referring to CrossFit competitive pressure specifically, not general competitive pressure. I've been involved with CrossFit since 2007 and I've never seen anything close to that level of pressure. You invoked the legal definition of culpability, and if you can't establish that, then my statement "you have no one to blame but yourself" is exactly what yo…
> You invoked the legal definition of culpability I invoked culpability. There a legal definition, yes, but there's also a moral meaning. I meant to include both, and not limit it to legal. > TFA doesn't invoke that argument, because that would change the focus to individual trainers rather than CrossFit as an organization Why would it? You need only look at the history of consumer protection laws to see counter-exam…
> some members view vomiting during a workout as a 'badge of honor'
This is a different issue from the question of rhabdo. It's obviously a much less serious condition. And for the record, I don't hold that view.
> For me it was dancing.
Awesome, me too. Mostly Argentine Tango. If you've danced in NYC recently, we might have seen each other. :)