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A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

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21–30 of 46 posts

Re: A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

#21

Unintended side-effect: When two gangs fight and people get injured but don't want the police to know about the location of the fight (an illegal clubhouse?), wounds are either ignored or stitched up by backalley doctors.

> When two gangs fight and people get injured but don't want the police to know about the location of the fight (an illegal clubhouse?),

Gangs tend to use social networks to organise fights. People in the UK tend to get wounds treated.

(http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2011/07/05130225/3)

> 89. Another innovative idea being taken forward is the sharing of 'anonymised' information collected at Accident and Emergency (A & E) departments in hospitals concerning the incidence of violence and use of weapons at particular geographical 'hotspots' so that police can track violence trends and take preventative measures. Many victims of violence do not report the crime to the police but do attend at A & E with their injuries. The National Violence Surveillance Network established by the Cardiff University Violence Research Group in England and Wales found that such measures led to decreased numbers of wounded victims attending A & E as a result of violence and a decrease in serious assaults reported to the police. A pilot study is underway in Lanarkshire hospitals along the same lines.

Here's what the Royal College of Nursing says about reporting crime: (http://www.rcn.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/287793/03....). This mentions the Cardiff Model.

2006: (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/the-streets-of-sc...)

> But doctors have admitted that the vast majority of stab wounds treated in the city's hospitals go unreported to the authorities. The scale of the violence is feared to be much greater than officially acknowledged.

[...]

> Last September the United Nation's crime research institute said Scotland was the most violent country in the developed world. Scots were nearly three-times more likely to be the victims of violent assaults than people living in the United States. More than 50 per cent of knives found by the police in Scotland are seized in Glasgow. Stabbings account for half of all murders.

2011: (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/shocking-rise-i...)

> According to the newly-published annual Global Study on Homicide, the homicide rate in Glasgow stood at 3.3 per 100,000, compared to 1.6 in the English capital.

> The report also shows Scotland’s homicide rate remains higher than in many other European countries, including England and Wales, Poland, Hungary, Croatia, Spain, Portugal and Italy. Figures for France were not available.

2013: (http://www.scotsman.com/news/glasgow-knife-crime-falls-by-a-...)

> There were 903 assaults involving blades in the period 2012-2013, compared with 1,439 the year before, a fall of 37 per cent. The rate is down 57 per cent since 2006-2007, when 2,138 knife attacks were recorded in the city.

> Officers have attributed the fall in knife crime to an increase in stop and search procedures across Glasgow. In November, 2007 the number of such searches carried out in the city was 4,356. Five years on, this figure has risen to 26,669.

Re: A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

#22
post #5

What's most important these days is the data was cleaned first, and was proactively given out to police which was used indirectly to ward off future crime. All it took was police presence. They didn't need to indiscriminately take patient records out of their backend systems or monitor the hospitals networks and reverse engineer http and packets. They didn't need to target individuals who are repeat offenders or viol…

I agree to the point I wish police were banned from owning drones of any type, but fire and search and rescue should be encouraged to add drones to their set of tools. If something that needs police attention comes up, they can be told.

Re: A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

#23
post #10

This is interesting. Hospitals in Austria are actually required by law to report such incidents as far as I know. The same is true for results of domestic violence.

Isn't this the case in the US as well, for injuries like gunshot wounds? Or is that just Hollywood telling me that?

Re: A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

#24
post #16

Bad idea, people won't go to the hospital. Reminds me of the story about the CIA going undercover as polio vaccinators in Pakistan and now legitimate vaccinators are being chased off and polio rates are increasing.

They were pretending to be doing Hepatitis B vaccinations in an attempt to confirm the presence of Osama bin Laden in the area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis_in_Pakistan#Fact...

Re: A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

#25
post #7
post #5

What's most important these days is the data was cleaned first, and was proactively given out to police which was used indirectly to ward off future crime. All it took was police presence. They didn't need to indiscriminately take patient records out of their backend systems or monitor the hospitals networks and reverse engineer http and packets. They didn't need to target individuals who are repeat offenders or viol…

When crime drops, police can get laid off.

Just don't lay off the analyst!

Re: A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

#26
post #10

This is interesting. Hospitals in Austria are actually required by law to report such incidents as far as I know. The same is true for results of domestic violence.

Isn't this the case in the US as well, for injuries like gunshot wounds? Or is that just Hollywood telling me that?

No, gunshot wounds are definitely required to be reported. But fights/blunt trauma and the like of non mortal wounds probably aren't required to be reported.

Re: A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

#27
post #16

Bad idea, people won't go to the hospital. Reminds me of the story about the CIA going undercover as polio vaccinators in Pakistan and now legitimate vaccinators are being chased off and polio rates are increasing.

I agree that it's probably a bad idea to publish a story about this program.

I'm guessing the type of guys getting into fights in Cardiff bars are going to stop telling the hospital staff when they realize it could lead to their favorite bar getting targeted by the police or even shut down.

Re: A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

#28

Better idea - save the data to a server, make an API (free), and let engineershelp visualize where the violence is occuring / predict where it will occur based on date/time

So, basically, you want someone else to do all the legwork and give you access to their data for free. Cool, we'll get right on that.

Thanks.

Re: A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

#29
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real crime statistics dropping? Or fear/perception of crime dropping?

I remember reading about the negative side-effects of crime-stat systems a few years ago. When the systems were first installed, they provided a ton of good information and the crime rate dropped. Homicides were reduced, less gang activity, etc. Well after a couple of years of reducing crime by double digit percentages, suddenly that became the standard. So there were perverse incentives to do things like classify cr…

I think the Freakonomics authors talked about this study... the study's authors noticed there was some gaming of the statistics going on because while most stats dropped, the rate of certain offenses held steady. The stubborn offenses were the ones that were much trickier to reclassify as lower level crimes, like homicide or arson.

Re: A Hospital Tells Police Where Fights Happen, And Crime Drops

#30
A related, and well studied, debate in medicine was about the right of privacy for inmates in a correctional institute. Until the final version of HIPAA inmate health information was not considered protected like for the general population.

Once upon a time ago it was intensely debated whether the effect of disclosures of drug or weapon possession to prison administration would negatively affect prisoner cooperation and the quality of healthcare. Inmates were known for storing weapons or drugs in their rectum, physicians worried that if an X-Ray were to reveal such objects and if they were required to disclose them that inmates would stop accepting X-Rays and general health would decline.

The general consensus of studies that examined this issue showed that this did not in fact happen[1]. It was found that as long as only things that risk the health of the general population (i.e. drugs don't need to be reported but weapons do) were reported there were no adverse effects.

Extrapolating to the general population, one could conclude that this hospital's practices wouldn't discourage people from going to the hospital. Criminals that would be discouraged by this policy would likely not be going to the ER prior to its implementation (similar to how inmates with knives in their rectum still won't go to a physician despite HIPAA protection) because they're afraid of being caught doing something illegal. You can't really do anything for this subset of the population however you can help the majority by sharing this information with the police while causing minimal (or no) harm to any individual patient.

[1] I read this in "Doing Right" by Hebert, PC. In the book they cited a study but I no longer have it, if someone really wants this reference I can go hunt for it. I wouldn't recommend buying this book as it's ridiculously overpriced.

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