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Being poor changes your thinking about everything

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Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#141

Post by ryoshu »

tsotha wrote: post #110
afterburner wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Is it the poor who have power to change things, or the rich?" Mostly the rich. That's the point. Laws get passed to service the wants of the rich, because they have orders of magnitude more influence. These laws then screw over the poor, but the rich can't properly sympathize because they just don't understand, because their world is so different.

I don't see any evidence "laws then screw over the poor". Exactly what are you talking about?

"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread."

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#142

Post by chiph »

teddyh wrote: post #2

I'm very much reminded of these: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-nobody-tells-you-about-... http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-devel... http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-things-politicians-will-never-... Especially the last one. EDIT: Fixed last link

Last one about the politicians not understanding poor people -- it's the same reason as to why the TARP money all went to big corporations -- your Senator doesn't know any poor people or small business owners.

He doesn't know any poor people, because he's more than likely rich (they have an average net worth of $10m) and has no reason to associate with them. And he doesn't know any small business owners because the US Capitol complex supplies everything he needs -- haircuts, dry cleaning, catering, car service. And the lobbyists that come to see him? Defense industry, insurance industry, agribusiness, etc. Not Jim's Handyman Services.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#143

Post by afterburner »

tsotha wrote: post #110
afterburner wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Is it the poor who have power to change things, or the rich?" Mostly the rich. That's the point. Laws get passed to service the wants of the rich, because they have orders of magnitude more influence. These laws then screw over the poor, but the rich can't properly sympathize because they just don't understand, because their world is so different.

I don't see any evidence "laws then screw over the poor". Exactly what are you talking about?

Deregulation of the financial industry lets risk-hungry banks take ever greater risks, causes the financial crisis, costs taxpayer money, causes high unemployment, and leaves the rich back where they started before the crisis while the poor still suffer.

Dismantling of welfare programs in order to cut costs in order to lower taxes on the rich stops critical services to the poor and keeps them trapped in poverty.

Tax liens sold to rich investors lets them practically steal homes (or get them at bargain prices) and evict the owners in order to flip them off what are sometimes ridiculously small amounts of debt compared to the home value owed by the not-well-off (but not ridiculously small compared to their financial situation).

And that's just off the top of my head... I'll give you a hint, most of the laws concerned are related in some way to cutting taxes or letting rich money play more (ie. make more money).

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#144

Post by rlanday »

greenlander wrote: post #127
pandaman wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

35% = 28% income tax + 6.2% social security tax + 1.45% medicare tax

It's actually even worse than that, because the employer is paying an additional 6.2% + 1.45% on your behalf. But from the employer's point of view, it's just another cost of having an employee. It's a zero-sum game. The employee is really paying 28% income + 14.4% social security + 2.9% medicare = 45%. (Actually a hair less because the employer's contribution is not considered taxable income, but in any case the eff…

Well, even if the employer pays the cost on paper, because the supply of labor is relatively inelastic, realistically, employees, at least in a competitive labor market, eat that cost through lower wages. I’m convinced it’s a way for the government to hide half the cost of insolvent social programs from people who don’t know about the employer share and/or don’t understand that they’re likely paying most of the cost.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#145

Post by jberryman »

goggles99 wrote: post #128
wildwood wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're only paying 35% in US federal taxes if you're making over 400K a year. Someone making $100K to $150K is in the 28% bracket. And you're probably only paying 10% in state tax if you live in California. Most other states' income tax are around 5 or 6 percent, and some are at zero.

Are you serious? What about sales tax? that is 10% in California. Throw that on top. What about property tax? Car Tax?, Health care tax (yeah since the state forces all hospitals to treat anyone without insurance [every ER at midnight is a pediatricians office for illegals - almost every kid there is literally running around with emergency sniffles and an emergency low grade fever] I get to flip the bill so I conside…

>Are you serious? What about sales tax? that is 10% in California. Throw that on top. What about property tax? Car Tax?...

Wtf? That's not how taxes work, guy.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#146

Post by PeterisP »

waps wrote: post #81
superuser2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prevalence of pro-early marriage, pro-birth, anti-condom social and religious values probably has something to do with this, as well as the fact that it's an evolutionary given that everyone wants to have children (or at least sex). Hard to argue with biology.

Do you think those values are wrong ? Look at the fertility numbers : if the rich were made responsible for producing the nation's offspring ... well there wouldn't be a future for America. Furthermore, there is nothing that increases happiness half as much as having a child.

Why do you equate lack of population growth with a bad future?

USA was a perfectly fine country back in 1990 when it had 250m people; and it would be a perfectly fine country if it'd have 250m people today instead of the current 315m.

In fact (contrary to "nothing that increases happiness half as much as having a child") I'd say that the Earth might be a happier place if the future had, say, 1-2 billion people instead of the current 7b or expected 10b - as everybody would have a larger share of the fundamentally limited natural resources, freshwater and space.

If the current resources were distributed somewhat fairly, then noone could have a lifestyle approaching even the "first world" working class - quality life is possible either for an unfairly small part of population, or if there is less population in the first place; and low-by-choice fertility is the most reasonable way to achieve that.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#147

Post by thefreeman »

specialist wrote: post #138
superuser2 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think issue is specifically complaining about it going to the government , where the implication is that it's going to be squandered on "lesser people." With no sensitivity for the fact that the taxes on her raise make an enormous difference to someone on welfare. The complaint in this situation is not "I wish I had made more" but "The government should take less."

My taxes also make an enormous difference to my welfare. There are things that are best done collectively.

That's actually the entire point they are trying to make. They don't make an enormous difference to your welfare. At least not when compared to someone making $15k / year and trying to support a family. You really can't understand what it's like to not know where your next meal is coming from unless you have been there.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#148

Post by PeterisP »

frank_boyd wrote: post #132

1 thing we should keep in mind: Being rich is only possible when others are poor. "Being rich" is a relative situation: If you have privileges because you're rich, you're not likely to say "I'm going to downgrade my life so all the others can meet me at the same level (of privileges)". Why? Because, a little simplified: you wouldn't find anybody to take care of your garden anymore. No rich person really has a natural…

The "wouldn't find anybody to take care of your garden anymore" approach isn't that valid today - just look at the lifestyles of rich people and compare them to earlier times.

The "0.1%" are far more wealthy than ever before - however, they are not employing more people for their personal needs. Assistants, butlers, maids, chauffeurs, live-in nannies/governesses, dedicated gardeners, etc. are a very rare breed nowadays used by tiny numbers of ultra-rich, while a hundred years ago many "upper-middle" class specialists (doctors, lawyers, civil servants) employed other people for their personal needs.

In fact, I'd say that it's entirely the opposite - the rich don't need or want the common people anymore, they can do almost without them; so they're not associating with them and not redistributing the wealth to "common laborers" by paying for their services, almost all of the wealth is invested in capital not in labor. So labor as such loses; the lower class would be better off being employed as gardeners rather than rotting without income, but they aren't. The top 5% can't afford them, and the top 0.1% need/want just a few.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#149

Post by specialist »

thefreeman wrote: post #147
specialist wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My taxes also make an enormous difference to my welfare. There are things that are best done collectively.

That's actually the entire point they are trying to make. They don't make an enormous difference to your welfare. At least not when compared to someone making $15k / year and trying to support a family. You really can't understand what it's like to not know where your next meal is coming from unless you have been there.

I have been there.

I get the that the safety net helps.

My point is that civil society helps every one.

My one criticism of my fellow liberals is their messaging doesn't appeal to their audience's self interest AND their sense of fairness.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#150

Post by gregd »

swalsh wrote: post #140

My Wife and I just bought a house, so the conversation about kids has come up. I guess i knew child care was expensive, but after talking to my coworkers it turns out they spend on average 20k a year (this is MA). That figure blows my mind. How can someone not on an engineers salary afford this?

There are a multitude of things that are expensive. You've hit upon one of the major ones.

Unfortunately, you'll have to crunch the numbers if you wish to have children. It may be in your best financial interest for one of you to quit your job and stay home with the kids, at least until they start school. Yes, you'll be broke all the time, but damn if your kids won't benefit in the long run from it. This is what my wife and I had to do. We had our two kids two years apart. She quit a pretty good job to stay home and raise them because by the time it was all said and done, she would have brought home less than $1000/month after daycare for two children...one of which was a baby.

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