Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 225 posts

Re: Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

#141

Post by benjiweber »

PeterisP wrote: post #79
Cakez0r wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are regulations (European working time directive). The problem is that employers will ask you to waive the rights afforded to you by that directive...

In continental EU legislation (AFAIK unlike USA), no contract can waive rights provided by legislation. If a job contract includes provisions that explicitly give up some of basic job limits (say, no vacation, unpaid overtime, limits of shift/week length, etc) - then, barring very few exceptions (listed in the same legislation), those parts of agreement are null and void. It's the same as it's everywhere for minimal…

Working time directive is one that you can opt-out of https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/weekly-maxim...

Re: Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

#142

Post by pavel_lishin »

nknighthb wrote: post #133
johngalt wrote: post #102

Meanwhile someone who learned to become a plumber or electrician at community college is making more per hour.

These comparisons never work for me. There's literally no amount you could pay me that would make me willing to be a plumber or electrician, and I'm grateful every day that there are a subset of people out there who will do those jobs competently without completely bankrupting me.

While I understand the hesitation to become a plumber, why would working as an electrician be so unpleasant?

Re: Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

#143

Post by rayiner »

saalweachter wrote: post #131
rayiner wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're a banking intern, it means you're a college kid. If you're in NYC, you can do something like live in NYU student housing for the summer. It's no big deal. As an analyst, you'll be making over six figures, with a base in the $70-$80k range. You can live 20 minutes from midtown Manhattan on that, though you'll probably have to have roommates (but hey you're 22 so again, no big deal).

You know, if your base is $80k, and you're regularly working 100 hour weeks, your hourly wage rapidly approaches $16 / hour ... which is about what the fast food workers are currently striking for. I do not think I could be coerced to work 100 hours a week regularly for less than $50/hour of cash and equity, and the lower bound might be closer to $100/hour.

You're not working 100 hour weeks consistently over the year. I'd be surprised if the yearly average is over 75 (in IB; I'd be surprised if it were over 60 in trading). Moreover, you don't take the job for the first-year salary. You take it for the potential of making $500k+ before 30 (if you stick it out), or going the MBA route and getting a cushy $200k 9-6 at some F500 afterward.

Re: Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

#144

Post by ffn »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #142
nknighthb wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These comparisons never work for me. There's literally no amount you could pay me that would make me willing to be a plumber or electrician, and I'm grateful every day that there are a subset of people out there who will do those jobs competently without completely bankrupting me.

While I understand the hesitation to become a plumber, why would working as an electrician be so unpleasant?

There is inherently nothing wrong with those jobs; both give you adequate skills one needs to not only survive in a company, but also strike out on one's own. In addition, both are positions that will always and forever be needed for as long as women have long hair that clog drains and men build houses with electricity without killing themselves.

However, both jobs are stigmatized against by major corporations and government precisely because how necessary yet independent they are. People with money and power are constantly in need of more peons to help them maintain stability and so brazenly flaunt their fabulous wealth in front of us, alluring us with the hope that we too can become like them if only we'd go submit ourselves to their devices. Blinded by this hope and seeing only so many other young brilliant people doing the same, we find ourselves pursuing careers in finance, STEM, business, etc., oblivious to the fact we're playing right into the hands of the corporations.

Oh no doubt they'll treat us well, the people at the top are generally good kind folk, but the fabulous wealth, dazzling fame, etc., that they seeded into our imaginations will never materialize in our realities... and before you know it, you're 30+, married with children, and you've come to accept the fact you'll only ever live an (upper) middle class life and the only thing still meaningful in your life is watching your kids grow up and providing for them.

Re: Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

#145

Post by throwaway1979 »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #142
nknighthb wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These comparisons never work for me. There's literally no amount you could pay me that would make me willing to be a plumber or electrician, and I'm grateful every day that there are a subset of people out there who will do those jobs competently without completely bankrupting me.

While I understand the hesitation to become a plumber, why would working as an electrician be so unpleasant?

First, I want to say I have an amazing amount of respect for the skilled plumbers, electricians, mechanics, etc. I had to use someone's service recently and I had to tell him ... "I have a PhD but I am in awe of the total mastery you have of your craft. My skill in my field cannot compare to yours." He told how he'd been doing the same thing for 35 years and had seen every possible situation under the sun for that job. He also told me that he has a lot of physical pain to get over in his line of work. Anyways ... hats off!

One problem with both occupations is lack of enforced regulation. My impression (but don't have any supporting data) is that these occupations have a number of immigrants who may not be legal working in them. I've also heard of "cash discounts", which might mean taxes are not being paid. As a straight and narrow guy, I would hate working in such a profession - it would be impossible to compete.

Re: Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

#146

Post by mcv »

randyrand wrote: post #138
No1 wrote: post #113

What I find most intriguing is that the whole banking intern hours thing is that it's not the result of a resource constraint - they have plenty of money and plenty of intern applicants. It's also not about getting particularly difficult work done - intern-level spreadsheet and PowerPoint work isn't the sort of thing that only a select few can handle. It's entirely about filtering for people who will submit to abuse.

"submit to abuse" is one way to put it. "Are right for the job" is another.

Right for the job is very general. It's specifically the willingness to submit to abuse that makes someone right for the job. At least from the perspective of this kind of banking culture.

Personally I'd feel safer if deals involving lots of money were conducted by well-rested, sane people. These kind of insane hours do not help your judgement, analytical thinking or productivity.

Re: Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

#147

Post by mcv »

nknighthb wrote: post #133
johngalt wrote: post #102

Meanwhile someone who learned to become a plumber or electrician at community college is making more per hour.

These comparisons never work for me. There's literally no amount you could pay me that would make me willing to be a plumber or electrician, and I'm grateful every day that there are a subset of people out there who will do those jobs competently without completely bankrupting me.

I would much, much rather be a plumber or (especially) an electrician than something like a dentist. I'm really grateful there are competent people willing to become dentists, because I could never do that.

Re: Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

#148

Post by lightcatcher »

thedufer wrote: post #136
lightcatcher wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm of the opinion that people can adapt to less sleep. I spent quite a while sleeping exactly 6 hours per night, and then spent about 11 weeks alternating between 3 and 4.5 hours of sleep on weeknights and about 7.5 hours of sleep on weekends. This almost certainly wouldn't be a healthy thing to do for years on end, but for the 11 week period that I did this I felt pretty good (maybe 90-95% mental capacity) and was…

> I'm of the opinion that people can adapt to less sleep. Fortunately, we have facts about this, so we don't need opinions. Its not true, although it can appear true over short periods of time. More importantly, the amount of sleep a person needs can vary a lot between individuals - you might only need 6 hours/night, but that doesn't make it physically possible for everyone to survive like that.

Looking at the just the productivity aspect of sleeping less, I have yet to see a study that accounts for the extra waking time that people have when they sleep less.

How much you get done = rate of work * time working.

Many studies have shown that the rate at which people can "work" (which means something like respond to visual stimulus) decreases when people sleep less. I haven't seen a study that compares this decrease in rate to the increase in time available for work.

If I have to do a task 1000 times each day and each time takes me 2 seconds longer on 5 hours of sleep than it does on 8, it'll take me 2000s ~= 34 extra minutes to do the task 1000x when I'm on less sleep, but then I still have 2.5 hours left out of the 3 that I decided not to sleep. (Numbers from this inspired by [1])

I acknowledge the health issues of chronic sleep deprivation.

[1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/30/sleep-deprivation-w...

Re: Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

#149

Post by FatGuyInACoat »

rayiner wrote: post #14

People like to dramatize this a bit, I think. First, I'll quibble with the definition of all-nighter: "I ended up doing an all-nighter in my first week as an intern, which is when you start work at nine, you stay until five or six the next morning, you go home, have a quick shower and then head back into the office and continue working." If you leave work at 5 and start at 9, and are sensible and live within 20 minut…

> Second, how many times did you pull a few all-nighters in a row during college? I can't even count. I certainly didn't die.

Go tell someone who has epilepsy that, douchebag...that's exactly what happened to the BoA guy.

Re: Pushed to the limit as a banking intern

#150

Post by yetanotherphd »

fibbery wrote: post #114
No1 wrote: post #113

What I find most intriguing is that the whole banking intern hours thing is that it's not the result of a resource constraint - they have plenty of money and plenty of intern applicants. It's also not about getting particularly difficult work done - intern-level spreadsheet and PowerPoint work isn't the sort of thing that only a select few can handle. It's entirely about filtering for people who will submit to abuse.

see also: bootcamp, fraternity hazing

And, if "The Internship" is at all accurate, big tech companies are no better.
Post reply on HN