Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#141

Post by Zoomla » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 3:58 AM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

the law doesn't apply if you are a "very important person", don't believe what politicians say.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#142

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 3:59 AM UTC

nikcub wrote: post #132

alexhomer1 wrote: post #35

"There is every reason to believe [sarin gas] was used not by the Syrian Army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists." Obama asserted something quite different in last night's address. He stated that the Syrian army distributed gas masks to their soldiers before the attacks, that documents show Syrian generals reviewing the re…

> Syria broke one of the most important international laws that we have Syria are not a signatory to the Chemical Weapons Convention (neither are the USA, Israel or Russia) which is why Kerry has chosen his words carefully and described what the Syrian government did as against international norms , not laws. > The goal would not be to upset the balance of power or to cripple the Syrian army in any way This is the pa…

Syria are not a signatory to the Chemical Weapons Convention (neither are the USA, Israel or Russia)

The US, Russia and Israel most certainly are signatories to the CWC. US and Russia both ratified in 1997, Israel has signed but not ratified. The CWC had the force of law once it had 65 signatories. Why would you not bother to check such a simple fact before posting?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Weapons_Convention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Chemical...

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#143

Post by kbrwn » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 3:59 AM UTC

dill_day wrote: post #57

If there's "every reason to believe" it's the opposition forces and not the Syrian government in control of and using chemical weapons, what good does it do for the Syrian government to "place its chemical arsenal under international control"? How can these two statements be reconciled? Putin says: No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian Army…

1)The instability of Syria could cause the rebels to gain access to unsecured chemical weapons that the obviously incompetent Assad govt may have.

2) Some rebel groups may have chemical weapons and if they use them Assad might feel like he can use his in defense.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#144

Post by nhebb » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 4:04 AM UTC

jtc331 wrote: post #121

nhebb wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that for heads of state, ad hominem attacks are perfectly valid. Even if Putin's logic is correct, it's reasonable to question his motives based on his character and past actions.

Sure, it's valid to question his motives. But that doesn't change the fact that he's making a perfectly reasonable argument. And when we're deciding whether or not to go to war, the reasonable and valid argument should win--regardless of who's making it.

I agree that we shouldn't go to war. My point was only that, while ad hominem attacks are not a valid form of argument in a debate setting, I think they are when it comes to heads of state.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#145

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 4:05 AM UTC

jnardiello wrote: post #64

snowwrestler wrote: post #38

The block in the UN is Russia. If Putin wanted action in Syria to carry the UN imprimatur, he could make that happen tomorrow.

China. You are forgetting about China.

China has no dog in this fight, and getting them onside just involves reminding them how they feel about the Japanese use of chemical weapons in the battle of Changde.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#146

Post by SCAQTony » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 4:05 AM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

"...If at this point, Putin sounds reasonable and is starting to look like the better of two devils, we're in deep shit...."

Well, at this point with the NSA scandals, this Syrian civil, I am convince that Putin is the reasonable voice and that we ARE in deep shit.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#147

Post by pekk » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 4:05 AM UTC

beloch wrote: post #92

Putin is certainly playing to his audience and is guilty of more than a little hypocrisy in this piece, but I tend to agree with his central argument. If the world has any duty to those inside Syria, it is to safeguard the lives of the innocent. How will rocket attacks accomplish this? The second U.S.-Iraq war and the subsequent occupation proved that state-of-the-art precision air and rocket strikes are still a very…

It's amazing that you managed not to mention the chemical weapons issue even one time.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#148

Post by Turtles2230 » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 4:09 AM UTC

cdash wrote: post #86

Demiurge wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from the rest of your comment... >Syrian army distributed gas masks to their soldiers before the attacks gas mask are for defense more so than for attack, giving those out is totally reasonable if they feared the insurgence could use gas. using this as an argument is playing to ignorance.

Gas masks don't even protect you from sarin, skin contact is deadly.

Depends on the concentration in the air. The concentration required to be lethal via inhalation may be vastly less than to be lethal via absorption through the skin, and therefore a mask may be the difference between life and death.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#149

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 4:13 AM UTC

dill_day wrote: post #57

If there's "every reason to believe" it's the opposition forces and not the Syrian government in control of and using chemical weapons, what good does it do for the Syrian government to "place its chemical arsenal under international control"? How can these two statements be reconciled? Putin says: No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian Army…

Assad has chemical weapons. Chemical weapons were used. Assad did not necessarily use chemical weapons.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#150

Post by tanzam75 » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 4:13 AM UTC

cremnob wrote: post #59

This is actually a great piece of propaganda that serves Russia's strategic interests. Judging by the comments here and on the NYT, it seems to be working. Putin says war should only happen by consensus from the UN, I wonder why he didn't abide by this principle when Russia intervened against Georgia in South Ossetia in 2008.

> Putin says war should only happen by consensus from the UN, I wonder why he didn't abide by this principle when Russia intervened against Georgia in South Ossetia in 2008.

Actually, Putin stated that the UN Charter allows military action either in self-defense, or by a decision of the Security Council. Which is accurate.

The Georgians attacked the South Ossetian capital, killing a number of Russian peacekeepers stationed there. Big mistake, because it supplied the "self-defense" component that Russia needed to justify their intervention.

The EU commission later found that the Russian response to Georgian provocations was a legitimate use of force. However, they also noted that Russia should have stopped at the border.