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To my daughter's high school programming teacher

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351–360 of 596 posts

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#351
This is less a "women in tech" issue than it is a standard bullying issue. You think the "go back to the kitchen" comment is limited to just programming class?

So this mom never brings this up with the teacher, presumes if she does it won't help, and then writes a letter at the end of the year detailing all the problems? Mother of the year, right here.

Also, "VB? Seriously??" got funnier every time I read it too. Jokes never get old.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#353
The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experience deep and pervasive chauvinism.

It's not a fucking "free choice" that women are making when they steer away from programming in the face of the grotesque pastiche of misogyny and bullying that underlies our vocation, in which most of the people who aren't actually bullying women are falling over themselves to deny its existence or make excuses for it.

Male programmers need to stop congratulating ourselves on how "libertarian" and "meritocratic" we are and start taking responsibility for how profoundly hostile and off-putting we have allowed this field to remain for most women.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#354

Passive aggressive preaching. If she REALLY wants to change things, offer to assist the computer department with digging up funding for a C based curriculum. It costs a lot of money for public schools to shift curriculum's.

At my daughter's school I offered to run a computer club, speak in class, redo their website, all for free. I said I would pay for all teaching materials. The head of technology rejected all offers. His response, "We use technology to teach, not teach technology". "A computer club would only teach kids to hack". "Besides, Cisco sponsored one years ago to teach about routers and it was poorly attended". I wish it was just a matter of funding.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#355

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

The danger of some meritocratic systems is that weak leadership will put up with bad behavior just because someone is clearly a star. "Yes, he's hard to work with, but the code would fall apart without him." This is even worse in finance. "We can buy off any kind of lawsuit, after all, he made us $50 million last year!"

The problem is that this causes a moral decay. Once a firm accepts that this behavior is acceptable, the slippery slope starts. Well, a couple fudged expense reports isn't bad. Oh, what the client doesn't know won't hurt them. No need to be entirely up front with government. Management doesn't get it, don't share anything with them. Criminal complaints from the government, we're just the victim!

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#356
post #9

I cringe reading this. Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters? * Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class. * Talk with them in person or on the phone. * If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in…

One time in college, I went to a busy ice cream restaurant with some friends of mine (Fenton's in Emeryville). After entering, we saw there was just one single open table, so we went and put our jackets down on it and then got into line. After getting our ice cream we went back to the table only to find our jackets gone and some fat people sitting there, eating ice cream with their fat kids. When I asked where our ja…

And if it were women, they'd harangue you for your use of "jacket" as a metaphorical sexual slur.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#357
post #270

I feel for the daughter who (like many women before her) had a crappy experience in the male-dominated programming world. I feel for the parent who sees her daughter possibly reject a very fulfilling career path after a bad initial experience, when the future could be so much better. But as a former high school teacher, I also feel for the teacher. Giving them some benefit of the doubt, I just want to point out a cou…

> I'm sure they're teaching VB simply because that's what they have experience with, probably making them the most experienced programmer on staff at the school. VB is a fine language to get children interested in programming. Personally, I know many people who weren't able to grasp programming via C but were pretty excited about VB's gui designer and easy database connectivity. Most of the introduction to VB didn't…

>> High school bullies are typically quite good at restricting their bullying to times when they're unlikely to be spotted by an authority figure.

> The author is being unfair when she is holding the teacher solely accountable for bullying.

Come, now. Yours is not a reasonable conclusion to make from the blog post. It should be obvious to the reader that the bullies in question are responsible. The author's point was that the teacher shares responsibility in providing a safe environment for all students in the class. Perhaps you don't agree (and what a shame if you don't), but you should not misrepresent the author's argument to make your case.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#358
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you really managed to do that in a thread pertaining to sexism in tech.

I thought the most hilarious thing about the HN comments was the 100% sexism oriented response WRT general HN culture, and nothing about hetronormativity or whatever its called, I currently work with a great tech, who happens to be female, and she also happens to have a wife, and I've worked with other women with the same family life as that in the past, so I was LOL the whole way about the HN "belief system" that ap…

Wow, you could be very right. I grew up and retired to SW Missouri (Joplin), which is actually part of the cultural South, although with plenty of Midwestern and Western influences since they're so very close. At least in my time way back when such degradation of women (not at all to be confused with the "mating game" or whatever you want to call it) was just not tolerated, including by the sub-group social leaders I was around (which included me in some groups). We were a little past the era of standing up when a woman enter a room (never taught to me by my parents), but e.g. holding the door open for a women was expected (or anyone with their hands full), and getting castigated for that unthinkable.

And, yeah, the concept of a gentleman was, and I think still is, very much in play. However much feminists complain about it, it sure seems to result in women getting treated a whole lot better. And at least where I came from, there was enough Midwestern and Western pragmatism that female ability in things you might typically think as male was not such a big thing, or threatening. E.g by some distance the best shot on my high school rifle team was a girl, an old friend from kindergarten. The rest of us were boys, and her example (not to mention help) pushed us to strive harder vs. tear her down. Maybe it was in part the genre (yeah, right, harasses the school's best shot???), but I read all this high school harassment stuff of the demean the woman type and wonder if it swept the nation later, or is in part a regional phenomena.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are really inconsiderate. And way to be a bully and pick on their weight because you didn't get your way.

Oh fuck yourself. I'm not saying what I did was right or defensible -- in fact in the comment you're replying to I said that I agreed that I was wrong. And in a reply to a sibling comment I apologized for thoughtlessly slamming obese people. I wrote about a time I was a jerk and put my name next to it. You ran to your throwaway account so you could show that you're effectively illiterate.

You already admitted you were wrong. No need to swear, be petulant and be even m o r e wrong, but in a different way.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#360
post #260
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's every bit as irritating, not that I would bother to confront anyone over it, it's not worth the effort. Still rude though. Take a table when you need one in a fast food place, not as you're joining the queue. Reserving tables before you have food makes it less likely that people with food can get a table.

I get it, I really do. But if you want to stop being annoyed about this, just realize it's the norm and do it yourself. It's definitely a waste of time/vibes to be irritated about other people doing it. It's not like a grave moral issue or something. The world is full of inefficiencies and stuff to be annoyed with and a lot of them aren't actually a big deal. :)

It's not the norm, though. Not here in the UK where queuing is basically a religion.

And it's not like I dedicate hours to being annoyed at it, or think it's a really big deal. I'm rarely in fast food joints anyway.

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