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To my daughter's high school programming teacher

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Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#251

Post by krakensden »

danabenson wrote: post #194
interpol_p wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's sexist, it's also a form of bullying. Bullying is generally punished in schools. Sexist remarks are also punished in the workplace. It is not "preparing kids for the real world" so much as it is "failing to respond to a situation in which a child is bullied."

> Bullying is generally punished in schools. Missing citation.

If you graduated from high school more than three to five years ago, you missed it, but there's been a huge uptick in formal efforts to end bullying in the United States, and especially California.

I can't really speak to efficacy, but a formal accusation of bullying is a big deal these days.

http://www.stopbullying.gov/

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#252

Post by krakensden »

derleth wrote: post #243
jacalata wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to an all girls school, and while I'm sure there was bullying, there was definitely no violence or rape.

Bullying is violence, and I wonder how you know there was no rape.

Bullying can be, but it isn't necessarily. Please don't trivialize real violence.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#253

Post by dscrd »

javert wrote: post #112
bangbang wrote: post #9

I cringe reading this. Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters? * Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class. * Talk with them in person or on the phone. * If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in…

> Life gets waaaay harder that this. In my experience, life gets much better after the end of high school, because in my experience, adults don't bully adults [1]. And if you are bullied, you can generally leave. [1] except the TSA, NSA, IRS, CIA, etc., but that's a different issue

>In my experience, life gets much better after the end of high school, because in my experience, adults don't bully adults [1]. And if you are bullied, you can generally leave.

In my experience, life does get better but also one's ability to handle bullying gets better which leads to less bullying.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#254

Post by DanBC »

byroot wrote: post #199
acjohnson55 wrote: post #143

I feel for the daughter who (like many women before her) had a crappy experience in the male-dominated programming world. I feel for the parent who sees her daughter possibly reject a very fulfilling career path after a bad initial experience, when the future could be so much better. But as a former high school teacher, I also feel for the teacher. Giving them some benefit of the doubt, I just want to point out a cou…

I totally agree with your comment, one thing though > a crappy experience in the male-dominated programming world. It's a bit far fetched to call a high school level programing introduction class audience the "programming world". Given the amount of people that, even in totally CS oriented engineering school, give up, or aim at a management career after they discover what CS really is, I'm confident to guess that no…

> I don't think this story as anything to do with sexism in IT.

I agree, but it'd be nice if it could be nipped in the bud.

> It's also possible (but we will never know) that she was bullied more because she was doing great in the course than because she was the only girl (which is still unacceptable of course).

Children are horrible to each other and will use anything. Ginger hair? Your life will be hell. Overweight? Your life will be hell. Only woman / man in the class? Your life will be hell. I agree that none of this is acceptable.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#255

Post by Uchikoma »

I'm feeling sorry for the daughter.

The poster is hard to take seriously, one mention of the harassment ("sandwiches"), at least three times he mentions "Visual Basic? Seriously??". He seems more concerned about language wars actually.

So many people confusing programming and programming languages - the act and the medium.

On top the "(violence and rape references)" that had nothing to do with the incident of the headline "To my daughter's high school programming teacher".

This is a disservice to all people who work on more gender equality in tech.

[Edit: As pointed out, it's a she. Thanks for pointing this out. Sorry for over reading this, I usually don't care about the gender of a person. Yes I've read the article very fast as it is 90% not about the headline]

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#256

Post by DanBC »

Uchikoma wrote: post #255

I'm feeling sorry for the daughter. The poster is hard to take seriously, one mention of the harassment ("sandwiches"), at least three times he mentions "Visual Basic? Seriously??". He seems more concerned about language wars actually. So many people confusing programming and programming languages - the act and the medium. On top the "(violence and rape references)" that had nothing to do with the incident of the hea…

> at least three times he mentions

SHE.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#257

Post by klrr »

This is a bit ridiculous. The problem here is not "male-dominated" class room but more likely the ordinary bully problem.

I had a friend who was bullied due to his clothing. He reported the bullies and they got suspended. Later they comeback to the school in an attempt for revenge. Fortunately a teacher witnessed the assault and they were later charged for their crimes.

Also, you can't expect high school teachers to know any other languages than BASIC. It's high school, you don't become a programmer there anyway. Either you are self-taught or you seek higher education. I got many friends who have taken programming classes in high school and in all cases the teacher wasn’t even a programmer but solely followed a book written for high schools.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#258

Post by jessedhillon »

throwaway9848 wrote: post #217
jessedhillon wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A) I was in college then. I'm inclined to agree with the reasoning you gave here now. B) But, the reason he gave was that it was against "the rules" -- that's the point: no, it's not. It's rude and inconvenient, maybe. It's not an abrogation of a code that everyone knows. It's an unwritten agreement, at best.

You are really inconsiderate. And way to be a bully and pick on their weight because you didn't get your way.

Oh fuck yourself.

I'm not saying what I did was right or defensible -- in fact in the comment you're replying to I said that I agreed that I was wrong. And in a reply to a sibling comment I apologized for thoughtlessly slamming obese people.

I wrote about a time I was a jerk and put my name next to it. You ran to your throwaway account so you could show that you're effectively illiterate.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#259

Post by scotty79 »

SwellJoe wrote: post #239
scotty79 wrote: post #225

You can't be different than other kids and visibly better than them without becoming a target of harassment. I've been better than other kids in anything computer, math, physics or chemistry related and I remember I had to tread very carefully even while I was helping them. Same way as when you give a good ideas to your boss, your concern should be not only about him accepting your idea but also about him not hating…

Victim-blaming. Just because abuse happens commonly, and has happened to all of us at one time or another (to varying degrees; and I was certainly on the receiving end of plenty of abuse and bullying, as a kid), does not make it OK. So many responses here are of the form, "Toughen up! I did!" Would you not have rather had a safe, non-abusive, school experience? I certainly would have. Would you not rather girls (and…

> Victim-blaming.

Sorry. It was unintended. I was just describing my own experience as almost-victim. Personally I mostly place blame on lack of teacher training in detecting and properly reacting to harassment. I hate "Toughen up!" advice. I even hate term "bully". It sounds tolerant, even affectionate. I'd go with thug or hooligan. In my language there isn't even a word for bullying. It's called beating, name calling, stealing, breaking someones stuff, persecution.

> Smaller class sizes consistently reduces behavioral problems

That's because it's easier for the teacher to pay attention and react. Above some limit it's no longer leading the class, it's crowd control.

> I don't think it's useful to merely blame the teacher

I'm far from blaming teachers personally. For me it's mostly about what teachers don't get. Like psychological training, smaller classes, framework.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#260

Post by rgbrgb »

Nursie wrote: post #145
jessedhillon wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if everyone sat at the table and one person ferried the money and ice cream back and forth from the counter? Would that be better? Actual utilization of the table for eating is still zero, and the table is still engaged for the same length of time. But try and evict bodies from their seats for the sole reason that their ice cream isn't in their hands yet and you would look crazy.

It's every bit as irritating, not that I would bother to confront anyone over it, it's not worth the effort. Still rude though. Take a table when you need one in a fast food place, not as you're joining the queue. Reserving tables before you have food makes it less likely that people with food can get a table.

I get it, I really do. But if you want to stop being annoyed about this, just realize it's the norm and do it yourself. It's definitely a waste of time/vibes to be irritated about other people doing it. It's not like a grave moral issue or something. The world is full of inefficiencies and stuff to be annoyed with and a lot of them aren't actually a big deal. :)
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