To my daughter's high school programming teacher • Hacker News Board

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#91

Post by Achshar » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:58 AM UTC

glesica wrote: post #46

smoyer wrote: post #18

Is Visual Basic really any worse than what you'd be exposed to at a Drupal conference? I think you'd be hard-pressed to explain why you chose anything beyond a 4th generation scripting language if you were starting a new class with an unlimited budget. Schools are often behind with this sort of technology, so depending on the development environment available, isn't one language as good as the next to explain concept…

I don't disagree with you, strictly speaking, but I do understand how VB might not be the best way to get people interested in programming. While JavaScript is, in my very humble opinion, a rather poor "first language", I understand why so many people seem to want to use it as such, because it is easy to get "neat" results. When I was a youngster, I thought the copy of VB 5 my dad got me was the coolest thing ever, b…

Not only is it easier to get neat results in JS but it has a very low barrier to entry. Everyone uses the internet and is just a shortcut away from executing javascript code in console of their favorite browser on a live page. That and the language itself is very "loose" when it comes to rules and strictness. It just gets the work done. Nothing like cpp for example. Now it can be both good thing because the results are easy and instantaneous and a bad thing because this gives a false notion to newcomers of how programing is done (but then again js is pretty ubiquitous on any modern computer, so it is as "real world" as it gets.)

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#92

Post by johndavidback » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:58 AM UTC

glesica wrote: post #74

zenocon wrote: post #34

My favorite comment...a tad subtle: > During the first semester of my daughter's junior/senior year, she took her first programming class. She knew I'd be thrilled, but she did it anyway . Edit: before anyone harangues me, I don't mean to take away from the shitty circumstances surrounding the core message in the post, just got a chuckle out of the subtle dad/daughter humor inserted.

> dad/daughter humor inserted. Not to be a dick, but you may be guilty of a little benign sexism yourself there... the author is a woman.

> Not to be a dick

Not to be a dick, but doesn't saying Not to be a dick mean you're being a dick but saying it's okay?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#93

Post by jimzvz » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:58 AM UTC

oceanstone wrote: post #33

It's too bad the teacher was too weak to protect your daughter's honor, and ensure decency in the classroom. High school can be a cruel place. I hope she realizes those hurtful comments didn't represent her at all. It was just scared boys searching for some semblance of masculinity they may never find.

>It was just scared boys searching for some semblance of masculinity they may never find.

Is this kind of shit any better?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#94

Post by jpatokal » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:00 AM UTC

jessedhillon wrote: post #41

bangbang wrote: post #9

I cringe reading this. Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters? * Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class. * Talk with them in person or on the phone. * If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in…

One time in college, I went to a busy ice cream restaurant with some friends of mine (Fenton's in Emeryville). After entering, we saw there was just one single open table, so we went and put our jackets down on it and then got into line. After getting our ice cream we went back to the table only to find our jackets gone and some fat people sitting there, eating ice cream with their fat kids. When I asked where our ja…

Seriously? You should be thanking the large, smart man for teaching you the correctness of a wise set of rules designed to maximize the number of people who can use the limited number of seats in a popular fast food joint. Unless you called ahead and made a booking, you had no right to reserve those seats and inconvenience all the other people (including said gentleman and his family) looking for a seat.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#95

Post by zenocon » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:01 AM UTC

glesica wrote: post #74

zenocon wrote: post #34

My favorite comment...a tad subtle: > During the first semester of my daughter's junior/senior year, she took her first programming class. She knew I'd be thrilled, but she did it anyway . Edit: before anyone harangues me, I don't mean to take away from the shitty circumstances surrounding the core message in the post, just got a chuckle out of the subtle dad/daughter humor inserted.

> dad/daughter humor inserted. Not to be a dick, but you may be guilty of a little benign sexism yourself there... the author is a woman.

sure, i assumed wrong..stand corrected, but benign sexism...i'm just going to respectfully disagree.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#96

Post by hga » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:02 AM UTC

yeukhon wrote: post #39

spamizbad wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Programming I class was taught by a math teacher (who was an excellent algebra instructor). Unfortunately he was only a chapter ahead of the class in computer programming. But that wasn't the worst part. For guidance, he turned to his brother-in-law, who was a manager of developers at Motorola. He stated as much the first day of class, boasting "You're going to have the rare treat of learning how programming is do…

How does he get through the course certification? Shouldn't he has to demonstrate he has the qualification to teach CS class? Is this a high school from a small town? I'd imagine in NYC this could mean firing the school's principal if New York Daily finds out.

My high school programming course, in 1977---IBM 1130 FORTRAN 'IV'---was taught by a coach. Who, without referring to notes, nor was it in the book, one day taught us 2s compliment representation on the blackboard (and boy was it useful to get a peek under the hood!).

I suspect, like in the real world, programming ability still sometimes counts more than credentials. Pity that unlike my teacher he wasn't so good at the teaching part of it.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#97

Post by cookiecaper » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:02 AM UTC

gemma wrote: post #60

cookiecaper wrote: post #15

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

> Minority entities will be teased practically any time they exist, regardless of sector or age, and they need to be taught to handle it well. Yeah? So this high school programming class isn't so much a programming class as a crash course in coping mechanisms for gender-based harassment? Please. It's the educator's job to create a safe space for, you know, education--for every student in the class, not just the privi…

>Which real world are you advocating this high school programming class introduce to a 16-year-old girl?

The real world where HR thought police aren't sitting in every room of every company. The real world where even HR people try to "make jokes" and be funny. The real world where HR people generally judge the severity of a harassment complaint by favoritism, which reality a blunt HR person (not employed at my current employer) just relayed to me recently. The real world where real humans, not perfectly politically correct robo-trons, must work, play, and engage.

I don't endorse teasing that harms a person's feelings. But I also think we shouldn't be so thin-skinned that we shrivel up and quit the first time a trite, cliched joke is thrown our way, because that happens all the time to everybody (your peers _will_ find a difference to comment upon no matter how mainstream you think you are), and if you can't handle it, you'll have a lot of difficulty handling more serious emotional situations, like getting passed up for a promotion.

It'd be great if the programming teacher first, was made aware of this problem, and the article never claims he was, and second, was able to stop the problem, but there's no guarantee he could've effectively done so even if he tried (and he may have), just as corporate HR departments can't stop all incidents of "harassment" even though they "try".

I believe the author probably wrote the piece primarily as a hypothetical, but I also believe it was bad taste to do so since this supposedly is traceable back to a real person who may not deserve that type of criticism, and I don't believe her fundamental complaint ("someone said something that made my daughter sad, so you all should feel bad :( ") is very worthy of the community's attention.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#98

Post by yeukhon » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:02 AM UTC

gaadd33 wrote: post #83

yeukhon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does he get through the course certification? Shouldn't he has to demonstrate he has the qualification to teach CS class? Is this a high school from a small town? I'd imagine in NYC this could mean firing the school's principal if New York Daily finds out.

Does NYC/NYS have certifications for programming/CS? It appears the only NYS certification for technology is a content specific one called "technology education" which I doubt has much of a focus on programming and probably more of a general "how to use computers" focus.

Although I am from NYC I have very little idea on how their certification works. What I do know is all my CS teachers back in HS are "qualified" (however you want to put it). They either have a degree in CS (one of them does), or have taken classes and passed some exams to demonstrate their ability prior to taking the job. I was really surprised to see our math teacher did a CS undergraduate.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#99

Post by skylan_q » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:03 AM UTC

nilved wrote: post #5

ryanx435 wrote: post #3

my theory is that there are not a lot of women in tech jobs because the men in tech jobs generally don't know how to interact with women. any woman that shows an interest in tech is not disuaded by the material, but rather by the inability of her male coworkers to treat her normally. I would not want to work or study in an environment surrounded by social akwardness and harassment either. the problem lies with the me…

Was there ever any doubt that the problem lies with men?

Was there ever any doubt that the problem lies with men? Not for the last 80 years.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#100

Post by morgante » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:04 AM UTC

This seems to be a vast overreaction. The only actual "harassment" is about making a sandwich, which is pretty low on the scale of insults.

In fact, the teacher was probably right to not intervene. For two reasons: 1) Regardless of your gender, being the person who caused adult intervention isn't likely to win you respect in high school. If he had intervened, she would likely have been further ostracized. 2) Growing up is about learning to interact with people. A big part of this is categorizing what matters and what does. If I made a fuss every time someone made a slightly off-color joke about my religion (I'm Jewish) I'd have both no friends and no job.