To my daughter's high school programming teacher • Hacker News Board

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#71

Post by etfb » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:50 AM UTC

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #53

cookiecaper wrote: post #15

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

It is about the student's experience reflected in the eyes of a mother. Parents are not known for their objectivity when it comes to children, but in this case the (rather far fetched) idea that the evil boys and their sandwich jokes made her daughter dislike programming found fertile ground in the whole "designated victim" narrative of women in online environments. There is no violence and rape in this story, there'…

This is a learning moment for you, Mr stefantalpalaru. What you've just said, although I know you meant it sanely and sensibly, has been interpreted as lacking in compassion. This is not your fault; what happened is you have made a comment from a position of unrecognised privilege. For your own good, and the good of any women you may have any kind of relationship with now and into the future, it would be a very good idea for you to read up on the concept of privilege, with an open mind. You will find it uncomfortable, and you will probably prefer to fight back rather than acknowledge a flaw in yourself, but in the long run it will prove to be the best thing to do, and you'll be glad you did.

Best wishes, and good luck!

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#72

Post by yanowitz » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:50 AM UTC

zenocon wrote: post #34

My favorite comment...a tad subtle: > During the first semester of my daughter's junior/senior year, she took her first programming class. She knew I'd be thrilled, but she did it anyway . Edit: before anyone harangues me, I don't mean to take away from the shitty circumstances surrounding the core message in the post, just got a chuckle out of the subtle dad/daughter humor inserted.

Agreed it was a clever comment, but it's a mom/daughter thing (not dad/daughter).

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#73

Post by lmartel » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:50 AM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #15

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

I agree. While gender-related issues in the software industry are important and worth talking about, this article seems to have pretty little justification.

I was in high school a few years ago. Put that many teenagers in a room and of course they're going to fuck with each other.

I've heard sandwich jokes made in liberal arts classes, biology classes, even a badminton class--which also had only one girl in it. The takeaway is not that the badminton industry is misogynistic or that the Phys Ed teacher is failing womankind; the takeaway is that high schoolers are dicks.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#74

Post by glesica » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:52 AM UTC

zenocon wrote: post #34

My favorite comment...a tad subtle: > During the first semester of my daughter's junior/senior year, she took her first programming class. She knew I'd be thrilled, but she did it anyway . Edit: before anyone harangues me, I don't mean to take away from the shitty circumstances surrounding the core message in the post, just got a chuckle out of the subtle dad/daughter humor inserted.

> dad/daughter humor inserted.

Not to be a dick, but you may be guilty of a little benign sexism yourself there... the author is a woman.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#75

Post by jacalata » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:53 AM UTC

hfern wrote: post #24

bangbang wrote: post #9

I cringe reading this. Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters? * Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class. * Talk with them in person or on the phone. * If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in…

> While I was attending SC '12 in Salt Lake City last November, my daughter emailed to tell me that the boys in her class were harassing her. "They told me to get in the kitchen and make them sandwiches," she said. Even if you think the parent is overstepping their bounds here, I would rather a parent be too concerned as oppose to not being concerned at all. Double so that he is in the tech sector while we are facing…

She - the writer is a woman.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#76

Post by tptacek » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:53 AM UTC

waveman2 wrote: post #69

According to the author she did nothing about the problem at the time ie did not talk to the teacher, but is now more than happy to create drama by the track. The author's qualifications in teaching appears to be zero, and her qualifications in programming seem to be that she is a tech journalist and author of a work of fiction. Why should the teacher have any notice of her? The extent of the problem is that some peo…

You were bullied viciously in high school, and the perverse result appears to be that you've become in adulthood a defender of bullying.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#77

Post by devilsadvocate9 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:53 AM UTC

gemma wrote: post #60

cookiecaper wrote: post #15

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

> Minority entities will be teased practically any time they exist, regardless of sector or age, and they need to be taught to handle it well. Yeah? So this high school programming class isn't so much a programming class as a crash course in coping mechanisms for gender-based harassment? Please. It's the educator's job to create a safe space for, you know, education--for every student in the class, not just the privi…

I agree with the thrust of your comment. But as a member of the "privileged majority" who did not have a safe learning environment for most of my school years, I'm tired of getting dumped on online and being told my experience is not valuable or valid in these discussions.

School sucks for nerdy white boys, too. Yes, I'd like to see a safe and healthy learning environment for everyone.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#78

Post by x0054 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:53 AM UTC

hfern wrote: post #24

bangbang wrote: post #9

I cringe reading this. Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters? * Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class. * Talk with them in person or on the phone. * If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in…

> While I was attending SC '12 in Salt Lake City last November, my daughter emailed to tell me that the boys in her class were harassing her. "They told me to get in the kitchen and make them sandwiches," she said. Even if you think the parent is overstepping their bounds here, I would rather a parent be too concerned as oppose to not being concerned at all. Double so that he is in the tech sector while we are facing…

What kind of relationship do you have with your kid that she has to tell you important information like this via email? Does she have a dad? I am guessing NO? Honestly, just the fact that the OP is writing the letter after the class is over, rather then confronting the teacher during the class does not sound right to me at all.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#79

Post by revelation » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:53 AM UTC

zalambar wrote: post #31

revelation wrote: post #4

If CS education in the USA is anything like here, the teacher of this class will be the unlucky fellow assigned with maintaining the school networks and other random "computer stuff". His qualification will be that of an interested layman, augmented by several one day seminars on random topics from Office to Java. There is simply no curriculum, there are no standards and no requirements, and if we are honest, the lev…

If students are being harassed and driven away from a subject by their peers I don't think the out of date curriculum is the most significant problem in that classroom.

This is a high-school, so pubescent boys making disparaging remarks and teachers unable to control class are both expected and completely mundane. Certainly they wouldn't make it into a USENIX blog post, and I don't think anybody would infer from these events that "tech is sexist".

So the curriculum was the best reason I could figure why this is on USENIX.

(I certainly don't want to excuse the shortcomings of this particular teacher, and there are many, but I think the system is setup for failure)

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#80

Post by timcederman » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:53 AM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #15

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

There were no rape jokes in the classroom. The article mentions the author had comments in reply to another article she wrote.