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To my daughter's high school programming teacher

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Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#51
I would of posted this in her comment section, but the requirements for signing up are beyond the pale of acceptable.

  "Thanks to my career, my daughter's Facebook friends list
   includes Linux conference organizers, an ARM developer 
   and Linux kernel contributor, open source advocates, and 
   other tech journalists."
I, am so jealous right now.

  "but I was unprepared for the harassment to start in 
   high school, in her programming class."
but her mother seems to have an interesting idea of what High School actually is.

  "Did you not see her enthusiasm turn into a dark cloud
   during the semester? Did you not notice when she quit 
   laughing with and helping her classmates, and instead 
   quickly finished her assignments and buried her nose in 
   a book? What exactly were you doing when you were 
   supposed to be supervising the class and teaching our 
   future programmers? "
That's hard to notice for a specific student when that's happening to 30% of the class, don't you think? That your god child should be spared, because she's female? I wasn't spared, why should yours be? She didn't get subjected to anything that I haven't gone through. At least from your description.

  "I'm no teacher, so forgive me if you think I'm out of 
   place when it comes to telling you how to do your job. 
   But I am a mother, and I've spent years encouraging 
   girls and women in IT"
and he will have to forgive you, up to him though.

  "Recruit students to take your class. Why was my 
   daughter the only girl in your class? According to her, 
   she only took the class because I encouraged it."
Because women are free to do what they want, and they're choosing not to. This discrepancy manifests everywhere. More deeply in countries with a focus on personal liberty. There are few male orderlies in hospitals.

  "My daughter said she [didn't know] about the programming 
   class ... Have you considered hanging up signs ... asked 
   the school counselors to reach out ... spoken to other 
   classes, clubs, or fellow teachers ... asked the 
   journalism students to write a feature ... asked current 
   students to spread the word"
It was a full class. Wasn't it?

  "Set the tone. On the first day of class, talk about the 
   low numbers of women and lack of diversity in IT"
You do not understand teenagers. Evidenced by that the teacher should single someone out to lessen harassment.

  "Don't be boring and out-of-date. Visual Basic? 
   Seriously??"
You also might not understand schools. I can tell you four things that have a high probability of being true:

1. The professor doesn't have a choice.

2. The professor doesn't care.

3. This is all the professor knows.

4. There is no one to replace him.

  "Check In ... Follow Up" 
How many students? ~30? In one class? In the ~5 classes he teaches every day?

  "my daughter learned why there are so few women in IT"
They choose not to be, and because they are so few, the ones that remain are singled out. There are few male orderlies in hospitals too, despite the fact that there's an "objective" demand for them (I was furious when I was confronted for the reason. It's to help lift patients, and help deal with patients experiencing an episode.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#52
post #3

my theory is that there are not a lot of women in tech jobs because the men in tech jobs generally don't know how to interact with women. any woman that shows an interest in tech is not disuaded by the material, but rather by the inability of her male coworkers to treat her normally. I would not want to work or study in an environment surrounded by social akwardness and harassment either. the problem lies with the me…

I don't think this applies to anywhere near the number of men the stereotype would apply it to. I've worked in very successful mixed teams in a variety of companies.

What's more I think the stereotype is harmful in itself. It provides an excuse for some men to act like assholes and it affects the perception of the rest by the outside world.

I have also seen misogyny and incredibly awful behaviour in the workplace. This was invariably carried out by men who thought they were good at what they did but were sadly mistaken.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#53

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

It is about the student's experience reflected in the eyes of a mother. Parents are not known for their objectivity when it comes to children, but in this case the (rather far fetched) idea that the evil boys and their sandwich jokes made her daughter dislike programming found fertile ground in the whole "designated victim" narrative of women in online environments.

There is no violence and rape in this story, there's only a mom with an axe to grind and a daughter who might not be interested in programming.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#55
I am sorry to say that I assumed the author was her father for most of the letter. Her arguments made much more sense to me after rereading it with that information, but I guess it's a statement in itself that with the discussion of her technical background and her strong assertive tone, I assumed her a man. Reality: checked.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#56

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

>It's hard to imagine that any rape joke would be allowed to fly in our classrooms where students can hardly wield pencils anymore,

Zero tolerance tends to create situations in which schools/teachers/administrators do nothing since they don't want to get someone expelled. This creates an environment in which students say/do terrible things with little or consequence. Best case the teachers look the other way but often the teachers will harass students as well (I saw two teachers in my Junior High School sexually harass students). Occasionally the school will overreact and have someone arrested for using the word gun in an essay. The general rule is to expect them to do completely the wrong action, every time in every situation. At least that was my experience.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#57
post #13
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm ... with that theory you'd also have to explain the odd concentration of socially inept males in tech. Why are they pooling there? Is it a "low spot" where gravity leaves a puddle? (street cred based on brain-cells instead of muscle and the ability to completely avoid physical interaction sure sounds like a win to a severe introvert).

Why are they pooling there? Is it a "low spot" where gravity leaves a puddle? Kind of, yes. Programming is a decidedly anti-social job in many ways, and suits the socially inept. That's not all a negative thing- it's possible to be successful through your skills alone, and few other jobs provide that path.

Unless you are a minority in the field in which case your success apparently requires tolerating disproportionate abuse from your socially inept peers. Hardly the meritocratic environment we like to imagine here.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#58
post #3

my theory is that there are not a lot of women in tech jobs because the men in tech jobs generally don't know how to interact with women. any woman that shows an interest in tech is not disuaded by the material, but rather by the inability of her male coworkers to treat her normally. I would not want to work or study in an environment surrounded by social akwardness and harassment either. the problem lies with the me…

We could make that argument a decade ago. A decade ago, geeks were just weird, and prone to incompetent and awkward social advances that could scare a young lady. A group that's incapable of making her feel comfortable.

And in a sense, you can't really blame them much for that. Social clumsiness and normal loneliness and desire aren't exactly crimes.

But what the author describes isn't like that. He described an actively hostile and misogynistic classroom.

Maybe I missed it (and I could've missed it since I'm a dude), but the modern culture of full-out misogyny that's infected young programmers wasn't present when I was a student, and it scares the willies out of me.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#59
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Programming I class was taught by a math teacher (who was an excellent algebra instructor). Unfortunately he was only a chapter ahead of the class in computer programming. But that wasn't the worst part. For guidance, he turned to his brother-in-law, who was a manager of developers at Motorola. He stated as much the first day of class, boasting "You're going to have the rare treat of learning how programming is do…

How does he get through the course certification? Shouldn't he has to demonstrate he has the qualification to teach CS class? Is this a high school from a small town? I'd imagine in NYC this could mean firing the school's principal if New York Daily finds out.

Why? On paper I can describe those lecture in glowing terms, if necessary. Just rewriting spamizbad's comment with the right buzzwords, and leaving out the student dissatisfaction.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#60

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

> Minority entities will be teased practically any time they exist, regardless of sector or age, and they need to be taught to handle it well.

Yeah? So this high school programming class isn't so much a programming class as a crash course in coping mechanisms for gender-based harassment?

Please. It's the educator's job to create a safe space for, you know, education--for every student in the class, not just the privileged majority. It's their job to track their students' education and interest level, and make adjustments if either starts dropping. It's not their job to facilitate a hostile environment and let minority students flounder in the interests of 'real world training'. It's not their job to decide that since it's hard for women in tech in real life, it should be hard in their class. Education isn't about maintaining the world we already live in, it's about shaping the world our kids will live in.

You want real world training? Show me an HR department in a software company that's fine with comments like "get in the kitchen and make me sandwich". Which real world are you advocating this high school programming class introduce to a 16-year-old girl?

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