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'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

theguardian.com

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Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#81

Post by chris_wot »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #70
chris_wot wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where you are going with this is so ridiculous I won't be responding, other than with this response!

It's not ridiculous at all. It's one of the fundamental assumptions you're making in all your arguments but unwilling to put down as an axiom.

Fine, I'll respond then. If some women don't find it offensive, all I need to find are women who did find it offensive, belittling, discouraging or isolating.

Or some men who believed it was offensive, belittling, discouraging or isolating to women. Like myself and a bunch of others.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#82

Post by illumen »

ericb wrote: post #33
cliveowen wrote: post #13

I'm tired of seeing everything linked to sexism in tech. Moreover, sexism isn't a female only problem: try (as a male) to get a job in a kindergartn or a nursery school.

> try (as a male) to get a job in a kindergartner or a nursery school. Problems in other industries are no justification for ignoring our own--is this an argument you are seriously making? Really?

Agreed.

There are definitely sexism problems in education. Especially kinder, pre-school, and primary school levels. This also has flow on effects to the IT sector. 80% women teachers is a common amount in countries like UK/Australia. Not sure of the stats in other countries.

The IT sector is doing better in addressing the problems compared to Education sector. The IT sector has made some good progress in the last few years. Some companies are going from 0%-20% to 40% women. There are outreach programs at many conferences and in many open source groups. If you look at the conference websites for teachers you don't see the same efforts. Lots left to do though.

I think the IT industry can take pride in it has accomplished in comparison to education in recent years. IT is doing well compared to the journalism industry too (male dominated).

Still lots left to do, and just because some industries are doing badly it doesn't mean we can't do better. But we also shouldn't ignore the good progress we have made.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#83

Post by chris_wot »

pstack wrote: post #72
chris_wot wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about sexism. Tell me that this is not sexist? https://mobile.twitter.com/HateYouCards/status/3767351904348...

Sexism is the assertion that one sex is inferior to the other, usually because of or alongside assertion of stereotypes of that gender. Misogyny is the hatred of women. Neither word really has anything to do with being attracted to the sexuality of the other gender. Neither word really has anything to do with simply being unkind, mean, or insensitive. Unfortunately, we often seem to throw these labels on people (labe…

You do not have a fully defined view of sexism there. One other part of sexism is sexual objectification, which reduces the person or whole gender to an instrument of sexual pleasure, without any view of the person's dignity or humanity.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#84

Post by chris_wot »

pstack wrote: post #76
chris_wot wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Titstare" was designed to allow men stare at women's breasts. In other words, for one reason only: objectification of women and their body parts. If you can't see that here, I'm not sure what else to say to you!

Both genders objectify each other on a regular basis. There isn't even anything wrong with that (unless objectifying each other is the whole of your entire concept and interaction with the other gender). The issue here is pretty clear cut. It wasn't appropriate for the setting in which it was presented. Nothing more. A stupid app, Cosmo magazine, pinup posters, physical attraction, and so on aren't really relevant an…

Yeah, there is something wrong with objectification. When you reduce someone to an impersonal object, with no regard to their dignity or personality, you dehumanise them. You can essentially do what you will with them.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#85

Post by cubsink »

How can people be angry about this? I thought it was quite funny. It's quite sexist to say that this app is sexist.

I come from the feminist extreme country Sweden and are well known with the feminist agenda. This article makes me angry, not the pleasant, funny guys presenting just a for-fun app. This whole debacle is so not necessary and could be avoided. I, like many guys in Sweden are very tired of being called sexist when you're not and tired of the feminists altogether.

I guess the US / UK haven't had enough of feminism yet.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#86

Post by chris_wot »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #80
sp332 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hypothetical is not useful. You don't have to take it as an arbitrary "axiom" for the argument; you could empirically measure some of the women who are offended by this talk.

The reason why it's useful is because in your case (empirically measure) it becomes at best "relative". There may be cultures / societies where woman desire men to stare at their breasts. In this case his argument would mean naught.

Was the app presented in such a culture? Where are you going with this?

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#87

Post by laichzeit0 »

chris_wot wrote: post #81
laichzeit0 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not ridiculous at all. It's one of the fundamental assumptions you're making in all your arguments but unwilling to put down as an axiom.

Fine, I'll respond then. If some women don't find it offensive, all I need to find are women who did find it offensive, belittling, discouraging or isolating. Or some men who believed it was offensive, belittling, discouraging or isolating to women. Like myself and a bunch of others.

Yes and what will you conclude from that? Some find it offensive, some do not. It's by no means universal and some kind of "necessary truth".

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#88

Post by pstack »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #59
chris_wot wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Titstare" was designed to allow men stare at women's breasts. In other words, for one reason only: objectification of women and their body parts. If you can't see that here, I'm not sure what else to say to you!

What if, let's just make this hypothetical for a second, woman want men to stare at their breasts? Would you still have an issue?

I think we would be better served if we stopped seeing everything as sexist or not sexist and determining that if a thing is not, then everyone should shut up and leave it alone.

Instead, let's dispense with the labels or making anyone out to be bad and simply think about our moms. There are countless things that are not sexist or wrong in any capacity, whatsoever. You still wouldn't feel comfortable doing them around your mom.

If it would feel awkward around your mom, then it might not be appropriate for a lot of wider audiences. Especially where we are potentially involving a professional capacity.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#89

Post by marvin »

partoa wrote: post #62
marvin wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? It's impossible for you to see how women at a tech conference could get the impression that they aren't valued for their ideas and skills when an app to look at tits gets a prominent spot? I sometimes think that the persistent claims of sex discrimination in tech are a bit over-the-top, but in this instance it's quite obvious. This stunt was very poorly thought out.

What does titstare have to do with not valuing women for anything other than their tits? Pardon me for asking.

It's not about intent, it's about perception. Using or building a tit-staring app may or may not imply that the guy in question respects women less for their technical merits, or judges them on looks rather than skills.

The problem is that as a technical woman in the audience, you will be very likely to perceive such an initiative as something that detracts from your personal values (professional merit, technical skills). This is doubly true in the tech community, where women are a minority, and is separate from the question of whether technical guys actually disrespect women. This kind of initiative is bad regardless. I'm pretty sure, though, that you will find a correlation between tit-staring and actual discrimination. Women as a minority in technical communities already have a hard enough time coping with the pressure to perform "in spite of their gender", there is no point in making it tougher for them.

When we use words like "objectification" in the context of sex discrimination in tech, it's really just an abstraction over valuing women less than men regarding technical skills. A lot of smart people will consider this a weasel-word, but it has a foundation in actual social mechanisms.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#90

Post by chris_wot »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #87
chris_wot wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, I'll respond then. If some women don't find it offensive, all I need to find are women who did find it offensive, belittling, discouraging or isolating. Or some men who believed it was offensive, belittling, discouraging or isolating to women. Like myself and a bunch of others.

Yes and what will you conclude from that? Some find it offensive, some do not. It's by no means universal and some kind of "necessary truth".

Many do find it offensive. As many find the word "nigger" racist, but some do not doesn't disprove that it is a racist term. So it is here.
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