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Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#51

Post by einhverfr »

espeed wrote: post #46
einhverfr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it is worth noting that some of Obama's campaign promises have actually been fulfilled, albeit despite his best efforts....

Remember in Obama's first term, the GOP strategy was strict opposition. But now Obama's positions on present issues make strict opposition more difficult because he is, on face value, supporting many GOP policies. There seems to be a bit of "don't throw me in the briar patch" mixed in with a dash of "gaffes" and "blunders". This surreal stew may be designed to complicate the GOP's public policy opposition strategy. A…

I dunno. On the civil liberties front, the EFF was complaining by April 2009 that Obama was worse than Bush regarding state secrets privilege. The NSA issues are things that appear to have accelerated under Obama as well.

Sure Congress bets some blame, but you can't blame the opposition in Congress for Executive abuses of power. That we are out of Iraq was despite Obama's best efforts to the contrary. That we got some transparency in civil liberties vs the war on terror have occurred despite Obama's war on whistleblowers.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#52

Post by einhverfr »

joelrunyon wrote: post #41
einhverfr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree. However I think it is more important to impeach those in charge of the intelligence community first and then work up to the President. I am not sure the President is in the loop here. As far as I can tell he gets most of his info in these areas from the same sources that we do.

> I am not sure the President is in the loop here. As far as I can tell he gets most of his info in these areas from the same sources that we do. And you're okay with that?

I am not, but given the size of the current federal government I think it is inevitable.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#53

Post by Zoomla »

wyclif wrote: post #29

Obama's presidency has been disastrous for the privacy of American citizens: “The [surveillance] Court documents declassified recently show that in late 2011 the court authorized the NSA to conduct warrantless searches of individual Americans’ communications using an authority intended to target only foreigners,” Wyden said in a statement to The Washington Post. “Our intelligence agencies need the authority to target…

and privacy was the reason I voted for him.... he was supposed to repeal the PATRIOT Act... Politicians, especially the president, really need to be held accountable for breaking their promises.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#54

Post by Zoomla »

einhverfr wrote: post #34
devx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Impeach him. I'm sorry if you voted for him and you think it's a too "radical" move, but I really think it's actually a very "proportional" and reasonable move at this point. More think he should be impeached if he goes to war with Syria despite a No vote from Congress and despite UN saying no, and breaking international law. I think the NSA thing is at least as big as that, and if he does both then it's that much cl…

I would agree. However I think it is more important to impeach those in charge of the intelligence community first and then work up to the President. I am not sure the President is in the loop here. As far as I can tell he gets most of his info in these areas from the same sources that we do.

He probably is in the loop, but if he isn't, he sure should be able to get in the loop when he learns about things like this.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#55

Post by mpyne »

notdrunkatall wrote: post #9
orblivion wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it comes down to rational ignorance. The whole thing is a negative feedback loop, nothing about it should be surprising. Breaking out of it is an uphill battle. Blame everybody, the NSA, the executive, the courts, and the population.

Should we also blame ourselves? As the informed, as the people with the capability to explain these technical issues to the masses, with the capability to foment a movement if we so desired, what blame should we place on our own shoulders, if any?

Even if you 'foment a movement', will it simply end up like the teetotaller movement which managed to foist Prohibition on a public that didn't want it?

The American people have for a long time been extremely 'tough on crime' (e.g. the ongoing 'war on drugs'), and the reason people don't seem to care is that this is an extension of the same philosophy.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#56

Post by mpyne »

frank_boyd wrote: post #23

> “The government says, ‘We’re not targeting U.S. persons,’ ” said Gregory T. Nojeim And again, the foreigners' right to protection of their privacy is not even up for discussion. I'm tempted to say this is un-american. But thinking it over, it seems to actually have become the new "american". In any case, this kind of attitude can not come from nation that sees itself as "the best country in the world".

Indeed, even Sen. Wyden says as much: “Our intelligence agencies need the authority to target the communications of foreigners, but for government agencies to deliberately read the e-mails or listen to the phone calls of individual Americans, the Constitution requires a warrant.”

However such behavior is at least consistent with traditional American 'protections' on foreign traffic. Even before there was an NSA, there was a government office reading Western Union telegrams being transmitted internationally.

This behavior is even consistent with the behavior of even Germany, which has a similar concept of foreign surveillance vs. domestic.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#57

Post by dhimes »

Zoomla wrote: post #53
wyclif wrote: post #29

Obama's presidency has been disastrous for the privacy of American citizens: “The [surveillance] Court documents declassified recently show that in late 2011 the court authorized the NSA to conduct warrantless searches of individual Americans’ communications using an authority intended to target only foreigners,” Wyden said in a statement to The Washington Post. “Our intelligence agencies need the authority to target…

and privacy was the reason I voted for him.... he was supposed to repeal the PATRIOT Act... Politicians, especially the president, really need to be held accountable for breaking their promises.

Me too. And also I was pissed at Bush's (whom I also voted for) disregard and disrespect of the international community in the Iraq invasion. Which turned out to be based on incorrect intelligence after all.

So I voted for Obama, and again when Romney started to sound like Bush.

Sheesh. So disappointed. Honestly, I am bothered by the NSA stuff but part of my empathy goes out to him and 'allows' that perhaps he is acting on information that we don't/can't know. Maybe there arose an enormous threat and he was desperate to stop it.

I await the day when he can tell the entire story of why he made the choices he did. I now fear that this is just fantasy on my part.

However, I see no excuse for going forward with Syria at this time. He would have the same effect if he got the UN and/or allies to agree to a strike if it happens again- rather than doing it for something that has passed.

So now I am really wondering who the hell the guy is.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#58

Post by JshWright »

toyg wrote: post #45
Sagat wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans believe their country has been chosen by God: ordained by divine powers to be the leader of the world. So it's not surprising that they view the rights of foreigners with contempt or at the very least lack of interest. "Un-american" supposedly means against freedom (and a range of other positive buzzwords) which is pretty hilarious given their behavior.

Some Americans . I do believe some actually know they've just been lucky enough to get a fairly resilient constitutional framework designed in an era of Enlightenment, and then smart enough to be on the right side of history during the three major conflicts that shaped the last century.

Don't overlook geography. The fact that we have easy access to both major world oceans is also a _huge_ part of why we have been successful as a nation. It greatly simplifies both international trade and naval power projection.

We would have been on the winning side of those conflicts no matter which side we chose.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#59

Post by mpyne »

“If we’re validly targeting foreigners and we happen to collect communications of Americans, we don’t have to close our eyes to that,” Litt said. “I’m not aware of other situations where once we have lawfully collected information, we have to go back and get a warrant to look at the information we’ve already collected.”

Although I'm receptive to that argument in general, part of the whole idea that generic collection is authorized at all, is that pre-emptively mirroring the data without looking at it (assuming that such mirroring is required at all) is still at least not doing a search on that data.

While I understand the Administration has tried to go away from that argument after it was first presented I see no other justification for capturing traffic that isn't clearly crossing national boundaries (which is admittedly a hard problem).

So the only way I could see for that argument to apply is if the data in question comes up on a legal search of foreign traffic, but not a new selector search into the entire pool of set aside traffic.

If you couldn't have legally run a search on the data as it came across the wire due to lack of a warrant then it wouldn't become OK unless another legal search window into that data opened it. It certainly doesn't become OK just because you happen to have custody of the data, just like we don't let the government open and read our mail without a warrant.

Re: Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

#60

Post by DerpObvious »

Sagat wrote: post #38
devx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Impeach him. I'm sorry if you voted for him and you think it's a too "radical" move, but I really think it's actually a very "proportional" and reasonable move at this point. More think he should be impeached if he goes to war with Syria despite a No vote from Congress and despite UN saying no, and breaking international law. I think the NSA thing is at least as big as that, and if he does both then it's that much cl…

Obama is not solely responsible for everything that goes on in the US government. The president's power is limited. However, since he is the figurehead of the state, it's only natural that citizens have the impression he is the mastermind behind every single negative action of the gubment. I'm highly disappointed with Obama but he is hardly a psychopath. All those decisions you find repellent are the result of pressu…

Obama is Commander-in-Chief of the DoD, which the NSA operates under.

Literally speaking, the president /is/ the highest commander of the NSA.

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