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Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

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Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#161

Post by angersock »

return0 wrote: post #152
vectorpush wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the lack of sacrifice necessary to make fat stacks of cash writing software? I don't know about you, but I've sacrificed an incalculable amount of positive social interaction sitting in front of these damned screens. My programming skills weren't spontaneously conferred upon me, as a kid I'd spend weeks at time building foolishly impossible-to-complete applications that I'd eventually leave to rot as I hopped onto th…

> but I've sacrificed an incalculable amount of positive social interaction sitting in front of these damned screens Sorry to call you out on that, but that is a tiny sacrifice to make compared to the past (which involved sweat, blood, immigration, exploitation to name a few). Even calling it a sacrifice is kind of sacrilege. Plus, you most probably did a lot of social interaction on your IM.

There's a big (hehe) elephant in the room here:

At least ditch-digging and carpentry and whatnot resulted in having some exercise in your body. Sitting in front of a screen (or standing, or whatever) doesn't do much to increase health, improve posture, or maintain eyesight.

I may be projecting a bit here, but most programming jobs (excluding the magical land of milk and honey and catered lunches and in-house gyms that apparently is the norm in SV and NY right now) don't result in you being any healthier or more social.

We are in a profession which is self-selecting for making us physically unattractive and economically replaceable (if we do our jobs correctly, it shouldn't be hard to replace us on a team).

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#162

Post by MisterBastahrd »

An autoworker needs an entire factory around him to do his job, along with a couple hundred other developers. He's nothing more than a cog in a wheel, made to do one specific thing over and over again to bridge the gap when there is a task a machine can't handle.

A developer just needs a computer, a compiler, and some motivation.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#163

Post by grandalf »

nostrademons wrote: post #146
grandalf wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are. This would lead to the conclusion that Linus Torvalds is fairly middle of the road, etc.

Linus Torvalds made millions off the VA Linux and Redhat Linux IPOs, both of whom gifted him with decent stock grants for his role in their corporate success. He's not hurting for money, and in terms of percentiles would easily be in the top 1% among both developers and the general public.

Fair enough, but then it also follows that the youtube founders are significantly better than Linus.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#165

Post by tomjen3 »

VLM wrote: post #79
gnaritas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm told that CS enrollments are now at record highs Given the high dropout rate of anyone attempting to learn programming, I don't think enrollment rate is good metric. > What's the barrier to entry that's keeping us from being flooded with supply? Programming is hard; really f'ing hard, for most people because it requires critical thinking continually and learning continually.

>Given the high dropout rate of anyone attempting to learn programming Its about the same as any other major. I googled around and found the 1999 cohort for Southeast Louisiana University (no particular reason, just google found it easily...) and they tracked freshmen's declared major and what they actually graduated with, if anything, after six years. In comp sci, it is true that 93% of self declared freshman comp s…

No, the CS isn't just a couple points higher.

CS compared to nursing is 7 graduates vs 12 = meaning that you have almost 50% more nursing graduates out of an equal sized group of incoming freshmen than CS graduates.

You have 17 accounting graduates for each 7 CS graduates, almost 150% more. Even psychology has 10 graduates for ever 7 CS graduates, which is roughly 50% more.

I hope I did the math correctly, but at close to 100% small differences in the percent points means a huge difference in outcome.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#166

Post by tomjen3 »

lhnz wrote: post #31
6thSigma wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have at least 10 friends who are in the technology industry but don't know how to program. Every single one of them have been saying for years how they want to learn. None of them have. It takes more sacrifice than you think to learn new skills.

It's not the sacrifice which you should worry about. These things don't happen quickly. Watch the curriculum of young children change. 10 years is all it will take.

Considering how well most schools teach writing or math I wouldn't worry.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#167

Post by quaffapint »

saryant wrote: post #143
VLM wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another interesting similarity not discussed in that autoworkers in, say, Wyoming, were pretty thin on the ground and not so well paid. In the Detroit area, sure there was competition and excellent pay. But in rural Wisconsin there was one (of many) rural assembly plants. Pay wasn't awful, but it wasn't as amazing as working in Detroit. And there was "a" plant. You get fired, you better move out of town becau…

I disagree. I live in Texas and as a recent CS grad there is no shortage of places trying to hire me. Pay is good (new grads starting at $50-60k in cheap cities like San Antonio), jobs are plentiful. I graduated in 2012. From our CS department, every student who at least managed a B average walked right into a real dev job.

You can get jobs in our area too (Northeast US), but they just ain't paying what they used to pre-economic downturn. Now that they know they can get devs cheaper, they just don't pay anywhere near as well. So, here you try to hold on to those old jobs, like it or not.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#168

Post by lgieron »

angersock wrote: post #161
return0 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I've sacrificed an incalculable amount of positive social interaction sitting in front of these damned screens Sorry to call you out on that, but that is a tiny sacrifice to make compared to the past (which involved sweat, blood, immigration, exploitation to name a few). Even calling it a sacrifice is kind of sacrilege. Plus, you most probably did a lot of social interaction on your IM.

There's a big (hehe) elephant in the room here: At least ditch-digging and carpentry and whatnot resulted in having some exercise in your body. Sitting in front of a screen (or standing, or whatever) doesn't do much to increase health, improve posture, or maintain eyesight. I may be projecting a bit here, but most programming jobs (excluding the magical land of milk and honey and catered lunches and in-house gyms tha…

A few dozens of years of physical labor can wreck your body harder than being sedentary - think about the accumulated damage to the back, joints etc. from the unnatural, repetetive and prolonged strain. Also, in many (most?) climates working outside takes it toll as well.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#169

Post by kenster07 »

Many commenters are too lost in their own egos to speak rationally about this issue.

CS is not a "cool" major in colleges, and programming is not a cool profession among tweens. Until there is a significant cultural shift, which I would bet will not happen any time soon, the labor pool will not be commoditized in the USA.

On top of that, the skill cap for programming is substantially higher than it is in assembly line manufacturing. Programming may be more comparable to engineers who actually design the cars, but those jobs are not commoditized either.

Re: Developers are the autoworkers of our generation

#170

Post by quaffapint »

It's not a good time to be a developer as it used to be. That was 10+ years ago, now the pay is much lower than it used to be.

You used to be able to hop jobs and make good jumps, now around here you hold on to those old jobs so you don't end up with a pay cut.

So, it's much more limited, though it encourages more side work I guess, just so you have something interesting to work on.

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