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Defeated

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Re: Defeated

#341

Post by takluyver »

reaganite wrote: post #84

Just sign up for Global Enrollment (GOES) and you automatically get TSA Pre and don't have to go thru the regular security lines: no Millimeter back scatter scanner, no taking off your shoes or taking your laptop out of your bag. Australia, the Netherlands and Canada have similar programs and at present all recognize each others program enrollees, so it also gets you thru Customs in those countries faster too. https:…

This may be paranoia, but it seems like this type of programme is a politically convenient loophole. The rich white potential-campaign-donor who's flying every week can get through quickly and easily, with the inconvenience and ignominy that the rest of us have to suffer before we get on a plane. If there wasn't this shortcut, would there be more political will to scale back the checkpoints?

Re: Defeated

#342

Post by donohoe »

marcusf wrote: post #249
donohoe wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to also drop the "simple" part as well. >> 1) Barriers to work and emigration > While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect This is a very non-trivial process so your casual response is a bit hard to swallow. And "domino effect" - I don't think there will be a vast tide of of people, but whatever. >> 2) Language barriers > One, you'd be amazed how much…

Hey ho! That ending was unnecessarily rude. I don't think he planned his post as a personal attack on you or your values, so I don't think the hostility is necessary. For some people it's easier than for others. I work with a ton of people who've migrated to Sweden. I think they find 1 and 2 fairly easy -- not trivial, mind you, but not hard enough that they can't be overcome. The third problem varies from person to…

Yes - re-reading that now. It came off as rude that was NOT my intention. Sorry - I apologize. (probably best not to edit it, and hope they see this follow-up?)

It was my desperate attempt to implore them (and people in general) to think through their responses before hitting Submit.

Opinion is great, but we're all too trigger happy to post our own view. Often its best if we didn't contribute on matters we are not well versed in.

I'm guilty of this myself. Not implying I'm not.

Its a futile exercise I'm sure, but somethings I feel like I have to try.

Re: Defeated

#343

Post by coldpie »

eddieroger wrote: post #162
coldpie wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people operating the naked scanners are literally ex-pizza-delivery-dudes: http://www.loweringthebar.net/2010/07/tsa-advertising-job-op... Highly trained professionals, these are not. They're just people working their nine-to-five to get a paycheck. We pass dumb customer support tickets around the office all the time; why shouldn't they pass around hot chick photos, etc?

Cops are 9-to-5ers as well. Should we not trust them to do their job and keep us safe? They didn't walk on the job with no training - maybe the ex-pizza dudes got trained as well. Also, comparing security photos and helpdesk tickets is a bad comparison, regardless of the similarities.

No, you shouldn't. Cops are not there to "keep you safe." They are there to enforce the law. Never talk to cops without a lawyer. This lecture, by a law professor and former defense attorney, explains why " rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc>

Re: Defeated

#344

Post by donohoe »

mjolk wrote: post #260
donohoe wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to also drop the "simple" part as well. >> 1) Barriers to work and emigration > While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect This is a very non-trivial process so your casual response is a bit hard to swallow. And "domino effect" - I don't think there will be a vast tide of of people, but whatever. >> 2) Language barriers > One, you'd be amazed how much…

>On a final note. I'm Irish and lived (US) here 12 years. My family and I can move to Ireland at any time without worry for some of the larger barriers; visa and language. An aside, but why did you move from Ireland to the US? I'm semi-seriously considering moving to the UK or Ireland, not out of any "argh america is literally hitler, i'm out" impetus, but to be closer to my girlfriend's family and for adventure.

The short (and unhelpful) answer is that I didn't intend to move here.

I came here for a long vacation of sorts (quit dev job in Ireland, swore never work in IT again, first stop on taking a year out to travel the world...).

I was at a point where I'd over-stayed tourist visa and was getting ready to move on and then I met a girl...

Re: Defeated

#345

Post by wpietri »

ignostic wrote: post #315

I find it odd that a community like HN is reasonable, calm, and science-based on all but a few issues, like the TSA. The problem is not the body scanners. The problem is the TSA and the disregard of the bill of rights. Health claims: Passive mm-wave scanners do not produce radiation. The active mm-wave scanners use non-ionizing radiation which has been studied and shown not to cause cancer. One study even suggested i…

On the one hand, I agree that these machines are unlikely to be a public health risk, and I further agree with you on the real problems here.

On the other, I think that that it's misleading to compare risks you choose with risks that are forced upon you. That's part of what has people up in arms here; it's clear that the TSA didn't really care about safety or privacy when they started with this, so I'm ok with people being deeply suspicious about the "no, really, it's all safe and private now" shtick.

Also, I think this is dangerous: "By analogy, you don't need to study the health effects of every single x-ray machine because we know what x-rays do. You just need to know the machine's dosage and wavelength."

It's worth considering the THERAC-25, a device with software bugs that killed 3 people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

There's always a difference between what a machine is supposed to do and what it actually does. None know that better than HNers. Given that this is a novel technology rushed into production using giant government contracts to satisfy the security theater apparatus, it's reasonable to worry whether corners were cut, worries suppressed, or facts buried.

I'm happy to trust my dentist's x-ray machine because he's a licensed, trained medical professional who's focused on healing, and who plans to stand right next to it for a couple decades. None of that applies in the TSA situation.

I think the TSA scanners are probably fine anyhow, and I've used them happily when I don't have time to be obstreperous. But I don't fault people who refuse to trust the TSA on this.

Re: Defeated

#346

Post by donohoe »

werner34 wrote: post #243
donohoe wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to also drop the "simple" part as well. >> 1) Barriers to work and emigration > While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect This is a very non-trivial process so your casual response is a bit hard to swallow. And "domino effect" - I don't think there will be a vast tide of of people, but whatever. >> 2) Language barriers > One, you'd be amazed how much…

First of all I think that moving to another country because you don't like the US customs might be a bit extreme, but still: >> 2) Language barriers > One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non verbally >>> So your answer here is great if you are a long-time tourist. Completely impractical in terms of career and work. German here, I have worked in Germany and abroad, I worked with an Australian guy working…

I guess on a completely personal note; in school I took French, German, and Irish classes.

I suck at all three.

My English is also terrible before that first cup of coffee in the morning too.

Re: Defeated

#347

Post by coldpie »

xxpor wrote: post #259
coldpie wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, though the longest wait I've had was about 15 minutes. My girlfriend has had about the same length, since they didn't have any women clowns at that station and had to call one from another station. The TSA clowns aren't there to make your life hell, they're there to do their useless jobs. Like any other position, sometimes the employees are bad at their jobs. I am confused about this, though: > ALSO…

You lose all credibility when you refer to TSA agents as "clowns"

They perform a meaningless task with no purpose other than to instill a certain emotion in their audience. Lots of job titles fit that definition, I like to use the word "clown."

Edit for a slightly less flippant response. I do not respect the job these people do, and I like to degrade their position of authority. I like to make them hate their job, which is one of the reasons that I opt-out of the naked scanners and wish more people would. I want to tear the TSA down to where it was pre-9/11, and I think making people realize that the job these people perform is pointless security theatre ("clowns" performing dumb and silly actions like groping my testicles) helps do that.

Re: Defeated

#348

Post by 3pt14159 »

pinaceae wrote: post #307
3pt14159 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just off the top of my head, countries that are both freer and less insane: Canada, The Netherlands, Norway, Iceland, New Zealand, Singapore, Estonia, Latvia, Switzerland. Freer in terms of personal freedom, civil rights, economic freedom. In the US you have: 1. Forced to sign up for the draft. 2. Your "Army Reserves" and "National Guard" DEPLOYED to fun places like Afghanistan on a rotating schedule. No they did not…

oh boy, would you be surprised about NL and CH. you don't like the draft in the US, which never gets executed? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland "Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. Males usually receive initial orders at the age of 18 for military conscription eligibility screening. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for…

I have seen more of the world than you would guess, and there is this FUD all over the place. I was on the fence about including Switzerland, but their banking law and gun law is much more sane than the US.

The draft in the states was used in Vietnam.

Opening a business in ALL of Europe is hard (especially France) but in most of the countries I listed it is easy. Stop grouping all of Europe into one big thing.

Biometric passports are horrible, but the US requires it for certain forms of visitation.

Re: Defeated

#349

Post by ignostic »

epoxyhockey wrote: post #331
ignostic wrote: post #315

I find it odd that a community like HN is reasonable, calm, and science-based on all but a few issues, like the TSA. The problem is not the body scanners. The problem is the TSA and the disregard of the bill of rights. Health claims: Passive mm-wave scanners do not produce radiation. The active mm-wave scanners use non-ionizing radiation which has been studied and shown not to cause cancer. One study even suggested i…

Your first points should really be addressing active Terahertz radiation and its effects on living things. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terahertz_radiation The summary is that we don't know enough about terahertz radiation to draw any solid conclusions yet, and there is at least one reputable source pondering, "How Terahertz Waves Tear Apart DNA": http://www.technologyreview.com/view/416066/how-terahertz-w…

Thanks for bringing the MIT article to my attention. I wouldn't say I referenced the type of radiation, but was just a little less specific. The only source for the article you pointed to (http://arxiv.org/abs/0910.5294) was a model, not an experiment or test.

Given the potential for DNA damage, though, it would be silly of me not to agree that more research should be done to see whether this model theory of "resonant effects" have any significant real-world impact.

Re: Defeated

#350

Post by rbanffy »

javert wrote: post #308
rbanffy wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is an extremely simple solution: leave. Actually, it's not a solution. If everyone who questions such ineffective and intrusive procedures leave, the ones who imposed them on your fellow citizens win. It's not my country, but I like it a lot. And it deeply saddens me to see what is happening to it.

Actually, if we could get 50% of all engineers and technophiles to flee the US, the insanity would have to stop. (How would they continue to pay for it?) May not be a terrible strategy going forward if the US starts looking like an end-stage Weimer Republic, especially since people will have to flee anyway.

Keep in mind it's an end-stage Weimar Republic with huge military power and operational nukes.
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