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How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

nytimes.com

141–150 of 191 posts

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#141
post #136
post #135

I have two active kids and am reasonably active myself. We have probably received medical treatment a dozen times in the last year, a combination of walk-in clinics, personal physicians and emergency room visits, depending on the circumstances. During these visits, the staff have used equipment, given procedures and prescribed medication and have rarely, if ever, inquired about my thoughts on treatment. When my son j…

The article focuses on what can hardly be considered a complicated good: salt water. Medical grade saline is highly regulated, and must be one of the most commodity products that exist in the country today. (The article takes pains to establish this.) It takes minimal effort to understand what it is or to compare prices. And yet, as the article says, there is no functioning market for it. For something like "set this…

But the need is still fundamentally inelastic. You're seriously ill from food poisoning and you've lost a lot of fluids. The ER nurse is about to stick an IV into you and wave your hand weakly and say "Wait, how much is that IV fluid you're putting in there?"

The nurse says $500.

Option 1) You say "no way, I can't pay that." The nurse shrugs and says "well, that's what it costs for IV solution here."

Option 2) You say "holy hell that seem expensive for a bag of salt water." The nurse shrugs and says "well, that's what it costs for IV solution here."

Option 3) You say "I'm really not comfortable paying that. What other treatment can I get?" The nurse shrugs and says "sir, this is the standard protocol for treating acute food poisoning. We put a saline solution into your arm via IV to replace your fluids. There is no alternate treatment. We're really busy in the ER, so I need to put this needle in your arm or get to another patient."

Now let's add a functioning market as you allude to:

Option 3, redux) You say "I'm really not comfortable paying that. What other treatment can I get?" The nurse says "well, we also have this other saline solution for a buck." You, reasonably, say "wait, what? Why is this other one 500 times cheaper than the first one?" The nurse shrugs and says "no idea, I don't make them. They both seem fine to me though." You, still being reasonable, say "then why is one so much more expensive than the other? Will the cheaper one do just as good a job as the expensive one?" The nurse shrugs her shoulders and says "look, I can't promise anything one way or the other. We default to the more expensive one but if you want the cheaper one, that's your choice. It's probably fine. Just sign this form that you're opting for the cheaper solution."

What does a rational person with zero context choose?

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#142
I am of the firm belief that healthcare is one of the basic goods that should be provided by a government. Some may cry socialism and argue that free markets are more "efficient", but that assumes people shouldn't have equal right to basic healthcare services. It also ignores the fact that many of the generally accepted principals required for a functioning free market are difficult to achieve in healthcare. In an emergency situation, for example, buyers are likely constrained to the closest hospital, at which point that hospital become a monopoly for that particular buyer. When the the good on offer is survival, it's easy to see where problems might arise.

I live in a country that has been rated the freest economy on earth every year since 1995 [1]. Low taxes, small government, minimal regulation. So what does healthcare look like here for the average person? $13/day. Got a sore finger? $13/day. Intensive care? $13/day.

There is a significant parallel private system that offers all the luxuries and perks that a free market can provide (no waiting times, private rooms, choice of doctor etc.). But it competes with the public hospitals for buyers. In providing a competing alternative, I would speculate that the public system limits the type of monopolistic situations that can arise.

No system is perfect and clearly there are enormous differences between the US and elsewhere, but it's interesting to note that the "freest economy on earth" has universal public healthcare, in addition to a freely competing private system.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Hong_Kong

[3] http://www.news.gov.hk/en/record/html/2013/04/20130409_19040...

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#143
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you explain other free markets that obviously deliver quality products at low prices? I don't feel gouged when I buy a television, a cell phone or lumber at Home Depot.

Do you feel ripped off when you buy a pair of Ralph Lauren jeans for $100+ made in Mexico for $7-8?

[deleted]

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#144
post #92

There was a really, really good (depressing) article I'd read about a year or two ago talking about how group purchasing organizations worked to influence the costs of devices. The example case was a guy who'd developed an auto-retracting needle, and was screwed out of business by some major manufacturers pressuring hospitals not to buy it. Does anyone have a link to that article?

Is this the article you refer to? "How the medical supply industry blocks device startups from selling to hospitals" http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2010/1007.blake.ht...

Yep! Good find!

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel ripped off when you buy a pair of Ralph Lauren jeans for $100+ made in Mexico for $7-8?

A bag of IV saline is a commodity. I would feel ripped off if I bought a bag of white flour and was charged $300 for it, too.

Mass-produced clothing is also a commodity.

You're just convinced it's not.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bag of IV saline is a commodity. I would feel ripped off if I bought a bag of white flour and was charged $300 for it, too.

Mass-produced clothing is also a commodity. You're just convinced it's not.

No, it's not. Commodities are products with multiple sellers and minimal differentiation. You can only put Ralph Lauren clothes into that bucket by willfully ignoring the concept of differentiation. Meanwhile: there is literally no differentiation between different suppliers of IV saline; it's a standardized product.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#147
post #124
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people buy cell phones. That doesn't mean the market works. Consumers are gouged every day by unfair practices from cell phone providers. I'm a bit confused how anyone using a cellphone could chino otherwise.

Genuinely want to kniw what sequence of letters was intended in stead of "cbino.

I'd say probably "claim".

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#148
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those involve heavy regulation by the state and most were state granted monopolies.

Air travel still worked while it was regulated.

If they added all the TSA & more regulations while it was 'regulated' would you still say that?

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are selectively re-arranging my words to create a different meaning. At no point did I say the US healthcare system was completely free.

Hint: if a half-dozen different people misinterpret your point, it's not them, it's you.

Half a dozen is pretty easy to hit when you have such a wide variety of people readying your post online. What would be the percentage threshold be?

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are selectively re-arranging my words to create a different meaning. At no point did I say the US healthcare system was completely free.

Hint: if a half-dozen different people misinterpret your point, it's not them, it's you.

So many unnecessary arguments crop up on this forum because of selective, incomplete reading of comments and misinterpretation.

If commenters took a minute to think about other potential meanings before going off on some misinformed rant it might make for a more productive debate.

Then again pigs might one day fly.

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