How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#81

Post by abalone » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:16 AM UTC

jes wrote: post #57

nikatwork wrote: post #36

Many in this thread are claiming that price fixing wouldn't occur in a "truly free" market. This is misty-eyed naivety. In a completely deregulated free market, it is even more in the hospitals' interest to form a price-fixing cartel. Any new player in the market trying to set reasonable market prices could be excluded through market pressure tactics (eg, tell distributors don't sell to them or our cartel will no lon…

How do you explain other free markets that obviously deliver quality products at low prices? I don't feel gouged when I buy a television, a cell phone or lumber at Home Depot.

> I don't feel gouged when I buy a television, a cell phone or lumber at Home Depot.

You might if you were carted into a Home Depot unconscious on a gurney, handed a non-returnable light bulb and stuck with a bill for $6,844.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#82

Post by iyulaev » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:17 AM UTC

zdean wrote: post #56

mattstocum wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if there were perfect competition, it doesn't matter much, people don't comparison shop for ERs. If you are having a heart attack, you're not in a position to compare prices at local hospitals.

Well, I think it would have to start somewhere. I'd be happy to be able to comparison shop for routine, non-emergency stuff...let's say dentists to start off with. I have a feeling that once you start chipping away at it, the outlying examples would get taken care of as well. There was a similar thread a few weeks back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6258597 It'd be great if the HN community started throwing ou…

I think people already cross-shop dentists. When I had a root canal done I inquired at two places. And I'm not even very sensitive to it since I have dental insurance.

Good luck with the same at hospitals though...

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#83

Post by DanBC » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:20 AM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #76

DanBC wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cell phones are a great example of the terrible results from supposedly free markets. Plans are deliberately priced to be confusing to compare prices; plans are frequently updated to cause people to be stuck in win-optimal contracts; consumers are gouged on some items (see bizarre cost of sms in UK); and companies collude to defeat market mechanisms - see the use of area codes in auction bids as a method of communica…

Would this be the same free market that put a Cray 2-class computer in my pocket for $85/month?

no. that was done by people making and selling computers.

cell phones opportunistically exploit that innovation.

the fact that you get great hardware for a tiny monthly cost is just proof that they're over charging most people for something else.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#84

Post by delinka » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:22 AM UTC

jdminhbg wrote: post #79

nikatwork wrote: post #36

Many in this thread are claiming that price fixing wouldn't occur in a "truly free" market. This is misty-eyed naivety. In a completely deregulated free market, it is even more in the hospitals' interest to form a price-fixing cartel. Any new player in the market trying to set reasonable market prices could be excluded through market pressure tactics (eg, tell distributors don't sell to them or our cartel will no lon…

> the US healthcare system ... a completely free market I have read a lot of wrong things on HN, ranging from the merely misinformed to the willfully ignorant, but this might take the cake.

I wonder if, perhaps, you could provide a counterargument to nikatwork.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#85

Post by moocowduckquack » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:24 AM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #67

ucha wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is absolutely false. All French citizens and even foreigners enrolled in the "securite sociale" scheme have access to the same facilities, procedures and doctors. There is no discrimination in the public service. Any claims to the contrary are at best unfamiliarity with the subject if not deliberate misinformation.

http://eurpub.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/4/361.short "The social inequalities in health have endured or even worsened comparatively throughout different social groups since the 1990s.... Health policies mainly promoting equal financial access to healthcare have little chance of abating health inequalities. "

You are severely misrepresenting that study as it is about the backgrounds of people who say they forgo healthcare on money grounds and pointing out that there are other factors other than whether someone can actually afford healthcare that affect whether people think they can afford healthcare.

It also appears to not look at ethnicity at all in that study.

It is basically saying that it isn't enough to make healthcare available, you also have to get people to use the service in other ways than mere affordability as even if something is affordable a lot of people will still not bother and claim that they think it will be unaffordable.

Results: After making adjustments for numerous individual socio-economic and health characteristics, we observed a higher occurrence of reported forgone healthcare among people who have had financial worries during adulthood, a life-course experience of physical, sexual or psychological abuse; who have experienced childhood difficulties; who have expressed a low degree of sickness orientation, a high worry/concern about and a low self-esteem

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#86

Post by pash » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:24 AM UTC

nikatwork wrote: post #36

Many in this thread are claiming that price fixing wouldn't occur in a "truly free" market. This is misty-eyed naivety. In a completely deregulated free market, it is even more in the hospitals' interest to form a price-fixing cartel. Any new player in the market trying to set reasonable market prices could be excluded through market pressure tactics (eg, tell distributors don't sell to them or our cartel will no lon…

Many people think "free markets" when they should think "competitive markets".

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#87

Post by jdminhbg » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:27 AM UTC

delinka wrote: post #84

jdminhbg wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the US healthcare system ... a completely free market I have read a lot of wrong things on HN, ranging from the merely misinformed to the willfully ignorant, but this might take the cake.

I wonder if, perhaps, you could provide a counterargument to nikatwork.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_%28United_States%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipaa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordab...

This is kind of like condescendingly asking someone to provide a counterargument to a proposition that the Earth is completely dry land.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#88

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:28 AM UTC

nikatwork wrote: post #36

Many in this thread are claiming that price fixing wouldn't occur in a "truly free" market. This is misty-eyed naivety. In a completely deregulated free market, it is even more in the hospitals' interest to form a price-fixing cartel. Any new player in the market trying to set reasonable market prices could be excluded through market pressure tactics (eg, tell distributors don't sell to them or our cartel will no lon…

[deleted]

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#89

Post by rogerbinns » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:30 AM UTC

coenhyde wrote: post #27

The problem with having healthcare under private enterprise is that these healthcare providers do not operate under the free market conditions we assume they do. There is no "perfect information" allowing consumers to choose the cheapest price. As the article points out the pricing structure is very opaque. Not to mention the "consumers" want the best product regardless of cost, after all we are talking about their l…

It is even worse than that. Lets say you want to open a medical facility that will lower costs. This will end up taking away business from other facilities where patients don't find the higher costs to provide value. In a free market, the new facility goes up, existing facilities have to compete, and consumers benefit.

In 35 states you can't do that. Existing facilities are protected, and you'll need to establish a certificate of need[1] showing that business won't be taken away from existing facilities. The somewhat tortured logic is that they would then have to charge remaining patients more which would raise costs for everyone so this is a cost saving measure.

Like many parts of US business it is good old fashioned protectionism, and not free markets.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_need

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#90

Post by nikatwork » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:31 AM UTC

jdminhbg wrote: post #79

nikatwork wrote: post #36

Many in this thread are claiming that price fixing wouldn't occur in a "truly free" market. This is misty-eyed naivety. In a completely deregulated free market, it is even more in the hospitals' interest to form a price-fixing cartel. Any new player in the market trying to set reasonable market prices could be excluded through market pressure tactics (eg, tell distributors don't sell to them or our cartel will no lon…

> the US healthcare system ... a completely free market I have read a lot of wrong things on HN, ranging from the merely misinformed to the willfully ignorant, but this might take the cake.

You are selectively re-arranging my words to create a different meaning. At no point did I say the US healthcare system was completely free.