How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#71

Post by nikatwork » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:01 AM UTC

jes wrote: post #57

nikatwork wrote: post #36

Many in this thread are claiming that price fixing wouldn't occur in a "truly free" market. This is misty-eyed naivety. In a completely deregulated free market, it is even more in the hospitals' interest to form a price-fixing cartel. Any new player in the market trying to set reasonable market prices could be excluded through market pressure tactics (eg, tell distributors don't sell to them or our cartel will no lon…

How do you explain other free markets that obviously deliver quality products at low prices? I don't feel gouged when I buy a television, a cell phone or lumber at Home Depot.

Free markets are a problem when there is a resource that can be monopolized (doctors / medical supplies) or when corporate goals are at direct odds to community interest (a deregulated BP despoiling the Gulf of Mexico because safety measures are expensive and fuck you.)

Home Depot would happily gouge you if they could form a cartel and gain enough control of the supply chain.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#72

Post by jes » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:01 AM UTC

gnoway wrote: post #59

jes wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you explain other free markets that obviously deliver quality products at low prices? I don't feel gouged when I buy a television, a cell phone or lumber at Home Depot.

Well presumably you're not suffering from an ailment that requires immediate application of TV, Angry Birds or a 2x4 in those cases.

Of the healthcare that is delivered, most is non-emergent.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#73

Post by GabrielF00 » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:05 AM UTC

twoodfin wrote: post #64

gnoway wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well presumably you're not suffering from an ailment that requires immediate application of TV, Angry Birds or a 2x4 in those cases.

Emergency care has to be just a piece of the cost pie. People shop around for health care all the time, including for very expensive things like childbirth.

There was just a big NY Times article on the cost of childbirth. Turns out its extremely hard to shop around. Not only is it much more expensive in the US than in any other country to give birth, but, with a few exceptions, it's very difficult to get pricing information in advance. To quote:

>When she became pregnant, Ms. Martin called her local hospital inquiring about the price of maternity care; the finance office at first said it did not know, and then gave her a range of $4,000 to $45,000.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/health/american-way-of-bir...

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#74

Post by jes » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:09 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #68

jes wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you explain other free markets that obviously deliver quality products at low prices? I don't feel gouged when I buy a television, a cell phone or lumber at Home Depot.

Cell phones are a great example of the terrible results from supposedly free markets. Plans are deliberately priced to be confusing to compare prices; plans are frequently updated to cause people to be stuck in win-optimal contracts; consumers are gouged on some items (see bizarre cost of sms in UK); and companies collude to defeat market mechanisms - see the use of area codes in auction bids as a method of communica…

Do you have a cell phone? If the results of this particular market are so terrible, why does virtually everyone elect, of their own free will, to buy a cell phone?

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#75

Post by CamperBob2 » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:09 AM UTC

nikatwork wrote: post #36

Many in this thread are claiming that price fixing wouldn't occur in a "truly free" market. This is misty-eyed naivety. In a completely deregulated free market, it is even more in the hospitals' interest to form a price-fixing cartel. Any new player in the market trying to set reasonable market prices could be excluded through market pressure tactics (eg, tell distributors don't sell to them or our cartel will no lon…

It seems to me that the parlous state of the US healthcare system is in fact a perfect demonstration of the dangers of a completely free market

I... I just... wow.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#76

Post by CamperBob2 » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:10 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #68

jes wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you explain other free markets that obviously deliver quality products at low prices? I don't feel gouged when I buy a television, a cell phone or lumber at Home Depot.

Cell phones are a great example of the terrible results from supposedly free markets. Plans are deliberately priced to be confusing to compare prices; plans are frequently updated to cause people to be stuck in win-optimal contracts; consumers are gouged on some items (see bizarre cost of sms in UK); and companies collude to defeat market mechanisms - see the use of area codes in auction bids as a method of communica…

Would this be the same free market that put a Cray 2-class computer in my pocket for $85/month?

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#77

Post by Vivtek » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:13 AM UTC

dantheman wrote: post #55

mahyarm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed convoluted pricing happens in these industries for consumers: - Airfare - Cell phones - Many telecom services - Banking & finance - Healthcare - Lawyers? - Accountants? One common pattern they have is they're prone to monopoly effects either through regulation or network effects.

All of those involve heavy regulation by the state and most were state granted monopolies.

Air travel still worked while it was regulated.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#78

Post by DanBC » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:13 AM UTC

jes wrote: post #74

DanBC wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cell phones are a great example of the terrible results from supposedly free markets. Plans are deliberately priced to be confusing to compare prices; plans are frequently updated to cause people to be stuck in win-optimal contracts; consumers are gouged on some items (see bizarre cost of sms in UK); and companies collude to defeat market mechanisms - see the use of area codes in auction bids as a method of communica…

Do you have a cell phone? If the results of this particular market are so terrible, why does virtually everyone elect, of their own free will, to buy a cell phone?

Many people buy cell phones. That doesn't mean the market works. Consumers are gouged every day by unfair practices from cell phone providers.

I'm a bit confused how anyone using a cellphone could chino otherwise.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#79

Post by jdminhbg » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:14 AM UTC

nikatwork wrote: post #36

Many in this thread are claiming that price fixing wouldn't occur in a "truly free" market. This is misty-eyed naivety. In a completely deregulated free market, it is even more in the hospitals' interest to form a price-fixing cartel. Any new player in the market trying to set reasonable market prices could be excluded through market pressure tactics (eg, tell distributors don't sell to them or our cartel will no lon…

> the US healthcare system ... a completely free market

I have read a lot of wrong things on HN, ranging from the merely misinformed to the willfully ignorant, but this might take the cake.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#80

Post by ThomPete » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 1:14 AM UTC

jes wrote: post #74

DanBC wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cell phones are a great example of the terrible results from supposedly free markets. Plans are deliberately priced to be confusing to compare prices; plans are frequently updated to cause people to be stuck in win-optimal contracts; consumers are gouged on some items (see bizarre cost of sms in UK); and companies collude to defeat market mechanisms - see the use of area codes in auction bids as a method of communica…

Do you have a cell phone? If the results of this particular market are so terrible, why does virtually everyone elect, of their own free will, to buy a cell phone?

Because they have no other choice.

We choose between what we have, not what is the best or the right thing to choose.