Don't Fly During Ramadan • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#921

Post by noisy_boy » Fri, Aug 23, 2013, 3:03 PM UTC

mansr wrote: post #597

About 6 months ago, I had the explosives detector at SFO flag me as suspect after a random pat-down. What followed was a second, slightly more thorough, pat-down and a very thorough search of my carry-on. It all took about 15 minutes, and the TSA staff were nothing but friendly throughout the procedure. Whenever you fly, keep two things in mind: 1) the TSA staff are mostly just doing their job, and 2) not all of them…

Those two arguments can be applied for practically any profession.

If you are mentioning them as offset to the issue at hand, they are no comfort to people who are subject to racial profiling/harassment (or to people who condemn such actions).

Otherwise they are just redundant statements.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#922

Post by rooshdi » Fri, Aug 23, 2013, 3:05 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #307

mindslight wrote: post #9

Just reading this raised my hackles. The only thing I really feel like saying is "I'm sorry", as you'll never get any sympathy from this system's enablers.

Thanks. Even though it's not coming from the TSA/FBI/et al., it means a lot.

Brave of you to share. Hope you get your photo back soon and some free flyer miles or something. You deserve better. We all do.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#923

Post by quantumpotato_ » Fri, Aug 23, 2013, 3:12 PM UTC

foiame wrote: post #310

chimeracoder wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't. I've never actually had to file a FOIA request before - is this something that would be available through one?

I would file one on yourself with all relevant agencies. It's a painless process (I emailed mine to the FBI), albeit a slow one.

What did you get back? Anything redacted?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#924

Post by foobarbazqux » Fri, Aug 23, 2013, 3:21 PM UTC

madaxe wrote: post #879

foobarbazqux wrote: post #862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe there's a mass consensus that it's an authoritarian regime. I'm not even sure there's a mass consensus that it's heading in that direction, regardless of what I personally believe.

No, and I don't think that a mass consensus is in any way relevant to determining whether something is an authoritarian regime or not. There was never a mass consensus in the USSR that it was authoritarian, because it was not permitted. When I say not permitted, I do not mean that they had people with guns going "THINK THIS!", but that social pressure and group-think were utilised to ensure that nobody broke ranks -…

So, okay, how do you determine it then? If those things listed each happened once, it wouldn't be authoritarian. (Would it?) What about twice? Three times? There has to be some threshold. I couldn't think of a better threshold than some kind of consensus, because it's essentially a value judgment. But, it's a good point about group-think. Maybe there has to be a consensus among people outside of the marginalized group? Maybe the fact that people are even openly questioning whether we have an authoritarian regime in the US means that we don't?

Perhaps things are authoritarian when a wide range of people expect abuse from the people in power, whether or not they recognize it as such.

Or, maybe it's more sinister than that, and we only truly recognize authoritarianism in retrospect.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#925

Post by kaitai » Fri, Aug 23, 2013, 3:27 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #408

anigbrowl wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And because he turned out not to be carrying any explosives, he was let go. As above, what would you do if someone set off an explosives detector? Investigations should certainly be conducted politely and respectfully, but at the same time they need to be persistent enough to deal with the attempts of guilty parties to conceal the truth.

Do you think the authorities behaved in a polite and respectful manner? I don't actually care if they do, I don't think that's a requirement; what I do care about is that they follow the law first, then use common sense. Detaining him for more than 30 minutes is very close to actionable in a sane legal world. Just because the TSA, FBI, and the local PD are full of bungling, ignorant idiots doesn't make what happened…

I will argue that politeness and respect are actually essential, because otherwise that's where racism, etc., creep in. Impoliteness and disrespect set up a hostile atmosphere in which matters escalate and the cops/TSA/gov people feel threatened and thus justified in using more authority, while the "suspect" feels threatened and thus justified in pushing back or trying to get out by more dramatic means. This is where bad stuff starts happening despite everyone's "best intentions" and this is the place that white people who set off chemical detectors simply don't get to. (It's the same dynamic that can lead to bad police-minority relations -- the difference between leading with "I'm sorry sir, but we'll have to frisk you" or "You causing trouble? What are you doing here?")

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#926

Post by mpyne » Fri, Aug 23, 2013, 3:36 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #795

mpyne wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you check for explosives? There are AQAP designs that involve zero metallic parts, and they've been attempted twice. In both instances the bombs actually made it on the plane and the attacks were only prevented by other means. That's one of the reasons TSA is trying to shift to machines that detect explosive chemical residue directly instead of just magnetometers, but that necessarily brings with it false posi…

Do they also have magic bombs that are invisible and intangible? If not, hands and eyes will do a good job of finding such things.

So the idea is to give everyone a thorough pat-down on the way through along with an even-more-intensive bag search? Not that I'm opposed... it would be way more 'action' than I normally get, but somehow I don't see everyone seeing it the same way.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#927

Post by tbarbugli » Fri, Aug 23, 2013, 3:50 PM UTC

A better title: Don't live in the USA

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#928

Post by konradb » Fri, Aug 23, 2013, 4:10 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #410

chimeracoder wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since the OP is here, and it wasn't totally clear in the story, I'm just wondering: if and when did you point out you were a Hindu not a Muslim†, and whether doing so and possibly additionally pointing out the historical enmity between those two groups might have helped or hindered. A few of the officers did noticeably relax their body posture when I told them I was Hindu (just as the man from Homeland Security rel…

I wonder how it would play out if you were an atheist. Would they assume that you are actually a Muslim denying his faith to get through?

Being flippant - it probably wouldn't do you any harm to be carrying a bacon sandwich.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#929

Post by thehme » Fri, Aug 23, 2013, 4:15 PM UTC

I feel terrible that this happened to the author and his experience clearly shows the incompetence of the government bureaucratic agencies - no water?! that is outrageous! I wish I could say that this will not happen again (to him or others), but the truth is that it probably will. Perhaps one positive aspect of this horror story is that the author has shared this with everyone and hopefully this can help educate people for positive change. I felt chills reading the author's anecdote and I am astonished by his courage and composure; I don't know if I'd be able to handle it myself.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#930

Post by tripzilch » Fri, Aug 23, 2013, 4:26 PM UTC

corresation wrote: post #72

It is a terrible ordeal, but for all of the other factors brought up the critical factor is that he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed). Everything else (about Ramadan, being Hindi, the color of one's skin, etc) may be nothing more than decorations, and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in…

you don't deal with false positives by doing the exact same test multiple times. that's insane.

given the fact that he did not have any explosives or was planning anything nefarious, this whole story shouldn't have happened (in any free and/or sane country) because other tests and checks should have quickly revealed his innocence.

and from what I get, they did so, but chose to detain and harass him, and break into his house (ffs!) regardless, possibly because religion/race/background/non-WASP-ness