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Don't Fly During Ramadan

varnull.adityamukerjee.net

461–470 of 986 posts

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, the pertinent detail is the fact the man set of explosive detectors. I'd argue that the pertinent detail is that he wasn't actually carrying any explosives. The other details, far from suggesting oppressive state apparatus, suggested an assortment of rent-a-cops and airline staff that really weren't particularly well-prepared for the guy that couldn't account for the explosives and flagged other profili…

And because he turned out not to be carrying any explosives, he was let go. As above, what would you do if someone set off an explosives detector? Investigations should certainly be conducted politely and respectfully, but at the same time they need to be persistent enough to deal with the attempts of guilty parties to conceal the truth.

As above, what would you do if someone set off an explosives detector?

I pat them down, and search their luggage. If I don't find a bomb, I let them go. It should take 3-5 minutes, tops. What I don't do is detain them for hours, grille them over and over again, and deny them food and water during the detainment.

but at the same time they need to be persistent enough to deal with the attempts of guilty parties to conceal the truth.

It doesn't even matter what they say, they either are or aren't carrying a bomb. That can be determined through physical inspection. Persistence doesn't enter into it.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#462
Aditya, if you're reading this: the next time a TSA agent threatens to call the cops, let them. If you hadn't made any outbursts, you haven't broken any laws.

Plus they'd be calling REAL cops. Ones that have to enforce and abide by real laws or actually face consequences.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is that oppressive. He went through security and set off an explosives detector. The cops showed up and asked some questions. Then he left. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the government can't hamfistedly accuse you of a crime. All it says is that they have to charge you or let you go in 24 hours, give you a trial, and punish you in a consistent way. They did that here; they asked some ques…

I don't think this is that oppressive. He went through security and set off an explosives detector. The cops showed up and asked some questions. Then he left. This is a vast mischaracterization of what happened. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the government can't hamfistedly accuse you of a crime. All it says is that they have to charge you or let you go in 24 hours, give you a trial, and punish you in a con…

> He was detained without arrest, based on minimal suspicions. Yes, he should have shut the hell up and not answered questions.

Minimal suspicions? A young male flying alone who refuses the scanner and sets of the explosives detector?

Yes, he absolutely should have been cooperative and answered their questions after that. I always refuse the scanner, but I don't complain afterward that I have to answer questions and get a "firm" pat down (there is nothing "firm" about them, btw, they are overly careful and respectful if anything).

And if I ever set off the explosive detector, my first reaction wouldn't be how unfair it was that "harried" employees were "rudely" explaining that my options were leaving or a private pat down. That would seem utterly reasonable to me.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#464
post #203

What do we do? For at least a decade, but more markedly so in the last eighteen months or so, I can't get on the Internet without seeing a story like this. Authorities of all sorts ignore any laws they feel like to provide the appearance of security against threats that usually don't exist in the first place. Revelations in technology that show absolutely nothing is secure unless you are manually rolling dice to cons…

Personally, I'm making plans to leave the US. Since few people will listen to me when I explain how bad things are, I do not believe effecting change is a reasonable course of action. Instead, I will try to internationalize my business and my life so that I can interact with pleasant people and escape tyranny.

What other countries are better options?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#465
Sad but lets not make the mistake of thinking this is limited to the United States. It's how most governments respond to what they feel, correctly or not, are security threats. I'm of indian origin as well and was traveling in India a few years ago. At the time, in response to the Mumbai attacks, the government had instituted a requirement for non Indian nationals to require permission to re enter the country should they leave within 2 months. I found this out when I arrived, as I was scheduled to travel to another Asian country and return within a week. While traveling, I visited the Indian embassy and sat in the commissioners office while he was on the phone and, later, while he was purchasing bananas from a vendor visiting his office. He took my passport and told me to return the next day- which screwed up my trip- but I did it. After my visit was complete I went back to India. When leaving India for the US, they noticed I had left the country within 2 months. I pointed out I received permission from the local embassy. They then claimed upon return to India I should have registered with a local government agency. I explained I didn't know this, no one had told me. They removed me from my flight. I checked into a hotel and the following business day went to the agency. When it was my turn, they asked for copies of where I was staying, who my local relatives were, copies of their passports, copies of their electric bills - fortunately I had a uncle who helped me and sweet talked them a bit. I got a permission booklet, that night tried to rebook my flight, but nothing was available on my airline all week. I had to return to work, so i spent $800 and bought a one way ticket on another airline.

Maybe not as humiliating as what this poor guy had to go through, but my point is, governments can act incredibly irrationally in response to security threats. I realize the need to keep its citizens secure - but when they claim they don't want the terrorists to win, one has to wonder if they haven't, in fact, actually won already by slowly decimating our democracy.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#466
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The explosives detection machinery doesn't care what you look like or believe. I don't know about you, but I want the TSA / FBI / NYPD to look into it so that they're sufficiently convinced the individual is not a threat.

Once they've determined he isn't carrying actual explosives he shouldn't be considered a threat anymore. The detection machine might single you out for additional searching, but once the search is complete you should be free to go.

>Once they've determined he isn't carrying actual explosives he shouldn't be considered a threat anymore. //

Because people who handle explosives and cover it up when questioned, and aren't involved in handling explosives in their day job, are completely to be trusted?

Surely once they've determined he isn't carrying explosives they need to be sure as possible, if he claims not to have been around any explosives, that he's telling the truth; in order to reduce the risk that he's going to use explosives in an illegal way and/or manner dangerous to life. Don't people who're manufacturing explosives in secret deserve at least a passing glance to see what they're doing with them.

It looks here like they checked his apartment to corroborate his statements.

Now if they've established there are no traces of explosive present - for example they confirm the cause of a false-positive - that's different.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#467
I am a US resident.

Flying from France back into the states through customs in Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport was the worst experience I've had with TSA.

First of all, a woman who was supposed to be managing the maze of lines tried to take my passport from my hand when I wasn't looking. I held it tight as she attempted to pull it away from me and she was clearly mad, yelling "I'm trying to help you!"

In line for the body scanner I was pulled aside for one of the random pat-downs. I didn't think about it at the time but it could've easily been the TSA employee who tried to take my passport form my hand.

The employee who was supposed to be giving the pat down was obviously reluctant to do it and asked me 4 times if I was okay with being touched inappropriately. I agreed 4 times, it took him 10 minutes to actually start giving me the pat down.

While I was being patted down another employee asked me if the bag that went through the scanner was mine. I said yes.

He began removing my clothes and charge cords and a few items I had purchased in France, and spreading them out on a table away from me.

I told him to stop and he asked why. I said I didn't want him to go through my belonging while I wasn't there and he didn't respond, but stepped away from the table.

After the pat down I re-assembled my luggage and continued boarding the plane. Just as I was about to leave security the officer came and put his hand on my shoulder and said that I "wasn't done with the security procedure yet."

He said I had to stand back from the table while he removed the items from my bag which I had just put back in. Apparently he removed my laptop and set it in one of the item-scanner bins at the end of the conveyor belt. He took 15 minutes to go through my bag, put everything back inside and sent me on my way.

Just before boarding I noticed my laptop had not been placed back in my bag. I darted back to security where the previous staff had been replaced by all-new employees. I spent the next 30 minutes trying to get them to dig through bins to find my MacBook, which was buried in a stack on the other side of security.

I made my flight by minutes.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

T.S.A. officials respond that the random searches are “special needs” or “administrative searches” that are exempt from probable cause because they further the government’s need to prevent terrorist attacks. Sigh.

From a legal perspective there's actually a valid point here: they're not conducting universal searches for evidence to use in criminal prosecution, which is mostly the sense that the 4th Amendment is interpreted as applying to. Rather, they're simply enforcing a mandate not to let certain types of objects enter a specified area. Effectively they're arguing that it's no different from, say, a courthouse which has a "…

> In April 2012, during a joint operation with the Houston police and the local transit police, people boarding and leaving city buses complained that T.S.A. officers were stopping them and searching their bags. (Local law enforcement denied that the bags were searched.)

> The operation resulted in several arrests by the local transit police, mostly for passengers with warrants for prostitution and minor drug possession.

Not really meeting the criteria you're talking about.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#469
post #73

The land of the free. As I read more and more of those stories I can't help but wonder at how things changed. I am from a formerly-eastern-europe-soviet-bloc country (Poland) and these kinds of oppressive techniques sound very familiar. The haziness of procedures, lack of basic rights, intimidation, no accountability of state officials -- we've seen all that until 1989. At the time, while the communist regime was imp…

I don't think this is that oppressive. He went through security and set off an explosives detector. The cops showed up and asked some questions. Then he left. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the government can't hamfistedly accuse you of a crime. All it says is that they have to charge you or let you go in 24 hours, give you a trial, and punish you in a consistent way. They did that here; they asked some ques…

And by all appearances, they went into his house. While he was at the airport.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#470
post #333
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the purpose of denying him water? Of taking the picture?

>> Of taking the picture? Zersetzung?

That's my thinking.

If I were only slightly more paranoid than I am, I might suppose that it was intended to be a chastisement for practicing what the officer/agent perceived as a weird, scary, terrorist religion.

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